Stunned vs Helpless

[Veritas]

Hey all,

Just wondering if anyone can clear this up for me.

According to the SRD helpless in the D&D realm means: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

and Stunned means A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

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If you are stunned are you not also helpless? Does it get being stunned get lumped into the "or otherwise completely at your opponents mercy"? You can take no actions and are pretty much at the whim of your opponent.

I'm only asking as I was curious about the Stunning Fist feat and performing a coup des grace.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Cheers. V

[Medesha]

Stunned does not mean helpless; they are two separate conditions. Thus you cannot stun someone and then cdg them.

Hope this helps!

[nowayman10]

Originally Posted by Veritas

Hey all,

Just wondering if anyone can clear this up for me.

A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target).

and Stunned means A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Right here is your main differance. While helpless you are treated as Dex of 0 while stunned you are treated to have a dex of 10 because then you have no bonus. Accually its possiable for a target of a stun to get a higher armor class because if they had lower then a ten then being stunned would negate the negatives for poor dex.

[Veritas]

Thanks for your help. I'm quite happy with my DMs ruling saying that it isn't possible it is just more of an academic problem for me. When I picture a stunned person based on the D&D definition I picture a person standing in place unable to move or defed themselves beyond that amount of defense offered by any armour they are wearing and thinking "What just hit me?" Which in my mind is no different than someone asleep in bed or bound and lying on the ground.

To me this just screams that they are completely at my mercy and would therefore get lumped into that slightly vague portion of the definition of helpless which uses the same wording "or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy" because if I choose I can take the time to line up my strike I can hit them with impunity.

Thanks for the input.

[Frats]

Actually, your AC never goed up, not even if you have Dex 1... if you're that slow responding, you always take the penalty... even when stunned or flat footed.

[Medesha]

Originally Posted by nowayman10

Right here is your main differance. While helpless you are treated as Dex of 0 while stunned you are treated to have a dex of 10 because then you have no bonus. Accually its possiable for a target of a stun to get a higher armor class because if they had lower then a ten then being stunned would negate the negatives for poor dex.

Frats is corect. You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC when stunned (if any). You don't lose your Dex penalty (if any). So your AC does not go up.

[djrackley]

I believe in the Player's Handbook it states that stunned, you can still move and try to defend yourself, (but you're no better at it than the average joe--provided you were something spectacular beforheand). You still have a Dex of 10, meaning you're still "mobile" though your head's all full of pain and system overload, you can still move, just not anything tactical or anything that could be considdered an "action" of any sort.

[zapperchamp]

Yeah, I agree with djrackley. I think of stunned almost like you're dazed (not the spell, the adjective). Your head is either hurting or you can't think entirely straight but you can see around you, mostly, and can move around holding your head (although you're probably a bit wobbly thus loosing the Dex bonus). Helpless, you can't do anything other than sit there such as you're tied to the wall with chains and ropes. That's pretty much how I see it.

[Farland]

While stunned you are basically standing in one place shaking your head to try to clear it, etc. You can wave your arms to make rudimentary motions to defend yourself, so there is a big difference between stunned and helpless.

[LordOfChaos]

Under the stunned condition, you cannot take any actions, but you can still defend yourself. What that means is that you cannot move, attack, cast spells, manifest powers, concentrate on spells or powers, or do anything that takes a free, swift, move-equivalent, standard, or full-round action. However, you are not helpless. You also drop anything that you are holding.

[zapperchamp]

Sorry, the "can't take actions" part didn't click with moving in my mind. A little too tired I suppose from school work.