Thoughts on LA and ECL and such

[Jondera]

You worded that kind of confusingly, RC. That calculation is used to determine the TOTAL amount of xp needed to reach a given level - that is, 120,000 xp will take someone from level 1 to level 16. The amount of xp needed to get from level x to level y (1 level higher) is equal to x*1000 xp.

So, using Aosaw's modification to the original system I proposed, the 15th level wizard who becomes a Lich (LA +4) will have to spend 10,000 xp (the amount necessary to reach level 5) buying off the template before he can gain level 16. That's about 2/3 of a level's worth of xp at that level. (Also, remember that creating the phylactery costs 4,800 xp, so you're actually out almost 15k xp, or the entire amount that it would take for you to reach 16th level.)

Honestly, yes, this system breaks down with high-LA templates and races and stuff. It's really meant to make low-LA (like, up to +3) playable without completely destroying party balance. If somebody wants to play a drow, they're now perpetually 3,000 xp behind the party, rather than being perpetually 2 levels behind the party. So, granted, everyone else hits level 3 while they're still level 1, but when everyone else hits level 4, they're level 3, and they hit level 4 before the rest of the party hits level 5. The gap gets (subjectively) narrower as the levels increase, just like the effective benefits from the racial modifiers get smaller as the benefits from class levels get greater.

I'm still a little unsure as to how exactly to handle Racial Hit Dice. I could see allowing trading in racial hit dice for actual class levels, though it would be at a reduced rate, or cost xp, or something.

My thought on this would be to make trading racial hit dice for class levels cost, say, 1/4 of what gaining the relevant level would be. So the first racial HD would cost 250 xp to trade, the second would cost 500 (for a total of 750 to convert 2), the third would cost 750 (for a total of 1500), the fourth would cost 1000 (total 2500) etc... That lets the conversion scale with the power levels - and keeps in cheaper and easier to convert low-powered monsters.

This is, of course, counting the fact that a monster class needs to have enough xp to reach a level equal to their HD, before purchasing the conversion.

Examples:

Gnoll (LA +1, 2 RHD). Playing a gnoll would cost 1000 xp to buy off the level adjustment, and 750 xp to convert both Humanoid HD to class levels. This leaves the Gnoll as a level 2 (whatever) at 2,750 xp.

Minotaur (LA +2, 6 RHD). 3000 xp to buy off the level adjustment, and 5,250 to convert 6 Monstrous Humanoid HD to class levels. This leaves the Minotaur as a level 6 character at 23,250 xp (while the rest of the party is already part-way through level 7).

Rakshasa (LA +7, 7 RHD, NOT recommended as a PC race). 28,000 xp to buy off the level adjustment, 7,000 xp to convert Outsider HD to class levels, leaving the Rakshasa as a base level 7 character at 56,000 xp, when the rest of the party is cruising along at level 11.

Worth noting is that a Rakshasa who converted their racial hit dice would lose their natural spellcasting, and would be far better off simply leaving their racial HD intact, and advancing in Sorcerer (starting at 7HD from 49,000 xp).

[Aosaw]

That's an interesting option; I kind of like it a lot, actually.

[Zhefonyll]

When you playtest this, I strongly suggest testing it at higher levels - which is where I think this system breaks even with lower-LA races. The Drow previously mentioned, for example, effectively gets SR and an improved casting-stat for free when you're looking at levels 15-20. Yeah, there may be one encounter/session where he's behind the party - if the party only gains exactly enough to hit the next level - but it'll be gone before it really hurts.

The flaw I see here is that in making the LA-races playable at low levels, you make it punitive to not take them at higher levels. Even the relatively-small perks like a Githzerai's SR negating 1/4 of attacks directed at it by a character of the PC's level are pretty great if they're practically free.

And there's another bit you haven't taken into account - some races, like the Githyanki/Githzerai and the Half- Fiend/Celestial, gain powers as they level, to counterbalance the price of playing that race. Those added abilities as they increase in HD mean that these races don't lose their value. Fixing them alongside the other races, like Drow, makes them almost absurdly good.

[chaosaccountant]

Any race with SLAs that scale with caster level (PLAs are particularly prone to this) or SR can be said to improve with level. It would be hard to draw the line between 'improving' LAs and ones that didn't.

[Jondera]

OK, Zhef, here's the problem as I see it:

Right now, we simply can't play anything with a level adjustment. It's not a "don't want to," it's a "can't." There's a little bit of leniency here for fighter-types, but for anyone who even thinks they want to be a caster class, taking an LA is the character building equivalent of character suicide. Like the fighter who decided to set the LA's worth of levels on fire by starting with 2 levels of commoner. Actually, even worse than that, because commoner still grants actual hit dice (which LAs don't), however sucky they may be, and fighter doesn't have actual abilities worth mentioning at 19th and 20th levels, whereas two levels of a primary caster class is huge in spells known and/or spells per day (depending on the class). Not to mention Caster Level, and other minor things like that.

And the flat fact of the matter is that at high levels, you can't base what the game is supposed to be like around fighters. Higher than 10th level, fighters aren't even playing the same game as the casters - casters just keep the meatshields around to be nice.

So, OK. We get to high levels, and suddenly that 3000 xp that the drow (or whatever) spent to overcome their LA seems meaningless compared to the amount of xp that they're getting regularly. But compared to the spells that the party caster is dropping everywhere, their racial abilities ARE pretty much meaningless. Oh, you want +5 inherent bonuses to all 6 of your abilities? OK, let me whip up a few wish spells. You want to go immolate a city? Easy. Spell Resistance is a 5th level spell, and grants 7 more points of SR (for a caster with CL = the drow's level) than the drow's SR. Granted, it's short-lived, but honestly, how often do you actually use that spell resistance in more than 2, maybe 3 encounters per day? A 15th level wizard can afford to drop 2 or 3 5th level spell slots into a buffing spell that will make over half of his enemy's spells simply fizzle against him (more, if he's got half a brain and has invested in ways to boost his caster level above his class level).

As for the "scaling" abilities of the gith races. *shrug* I might be tempted to give them a higher LA under this system. Maybe a +4. But even so, look at those abilities. Discounting the ones which are extremely situational or even completely worthless (like Catfall and Daze, respectively), mostly they can just teleport around a bit. Githzerai can duplicate the Mage Armor spell, which is nice and useful for their monks, but not so useful if you're playing anything that's already wearing armor.

Consider that in Pathfinder, your average 1st level wizard can use Mage Hand, Daze, and Ray of Frost (or some other selection of cantrips, as you care to choose them) as many times per day as he cares to, with save DCs which scale as he levels up. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that those few little SLAs (or PLAs, as it were) aren't problems. They're just flavor abilities which really don't affect the character's build, and only add a little bit to the character's utility in certain situations. I'd honestly be more concerned about the Githzerai's +6 dexterity, though the penalty to Int would still scare me off most of the time (since I like playing skillmonkeys).

[Zhefonyll]

Pathfinder: Yeah, they have infinite cantrips. That's awesome, because now your mage can throw half the damage of a rapier all day long. It's counterbalanced by being a touch attack, so they'll usually hit with half the damage of a rapier all day long. Oh, and anything with Fire/Acid Resistance 5 is immune to their infinite attack spells, so it practically disappears by the mid-levels as a viable attack against enemies that are truly a threat.

So our Gith___ have the abilities of a first-level caster (or better, as you level up), and that effective level-dip should be free when you get far enough along, to reward poor character design? Fighters are underpowered, so they shouldn't get more out of LA races, thus offering a small counterbalance to the stronger classes' advantages?

If you're going to contend that a mage can duplicate all of a race's SLAs, SR, DR, and elemental resistances/immunities (which a mage can do for an encounter, maybe spending a little cash, maybe even by chaining the spells together so it only takes one round to activate the mess), then a Fighter should gain +2 Strength each level in addition to all he normally gets. That's the only way you're going to make the Fighter so absurdly powerful that he can't be replicated in the short-term - and even then you need the confines of a dungeon (otherwise Shapechange can get you an absurdly-high Strength).

LA and Racial HD are a type of multiclassing. It's supposed to cost you something if you do it. If you're dying from the loss in Caster-Level, you can take a feat or two and make that problem disappear in exchange for a different cost (loss of other valuable feats). If you're worried about losing some Spells/Day, you can look into gear or feats. Same with Spells Known. This isn't really the problem in the long run. Ultimately, LA+3 or 3 Racial HD, or a combination which adds up to 3, doesn't take away the highest spell-level, nor does the loss in Spells/Day or Spells Known truly cripple a mage who still throws shapeable fireballs off the 4th-level spell slots that he doesn't even care about.


The true issue is in the levelling. You 'can't' play a LA+2 or higher caster because you're always too far behind in spell-level to be an effective caster. You'd have to admit that you've built a suboptimal Gish or other multiclassed caster and accept the same problems. It's like playing a Mystic Theurge design in levels 4-6, where you're just not a good character because you've taken a terrible class-combination with your levels. The difference is that you don't end up making back most the loss, so you're always playing at the disadvantageous levels where your choice in multiclassing is punitive.

What you've suggested would effectively make LA go away at higher levels and lessen the pain of it during the actual levelling. There would still even be levels - particularly those in which you'd introduce your (Troll Wizard) PC - where nothing truly changes, levels where the character still sucks to play because he's so weak.


So let's revisit this with that in mind. You don't need the character to end up more powerful, just to have some of that power earlier. Apply the KISS principle, so it should be terribly easy to implement, even if that is slightly unbalanced.


New suggestion:
A spellcaster may add his LA to his class-level for one base class only to determine his/her maximum spell level for his class. The character gains 0 spells/day (and 1 spells-known if applicable) of this maximum level, and each level lower gains one more spell/day (and spells-known, if applicable) than the last, to a maximum of the spells/day (and spells known) of the character's current level. As with a bard, 0 spells/day means the caster only gains bonus spells for a high casting stat.

For example, a level-3 Sorcerer with LA+1 would gain 0 2nd-level spells/day and one 2nd-level spell-known. A level-3 Sorcerer with LA+3 would gain 0 3rd-level spells/day, 1 3rd-level spell-known, 1 2nd-level spell/day, and 2 2nd-level spells-known.

This effectively means that a primary spellcaster casts spells on par with a character with his ECL, though significantly fewer. It's similar in principle to stacking Sorcerer class-variants which reduce spells/day and/or spells-known in favor of other advantages. It also means no cheating the system to get into Mystic Theurge quicker by having LA apply to multiple classes.


If you do this, though, that's the spellcaster's option. Fighter and Rogue -types should have another option, possibly +3/4 BAB and +2 HP per point of LA. In both situations, Base Saves should all improve by 1/2 per point of LA, the character should gain Int-mod Skill Points (minimum 1, caps increase as per levelling, class-skills from racial or a class the PC already has levels in) per point of LA, and LA buyoff should go in the garbage.


That should be all the major hurdles. BAB, Base Saves, Skill Points, and maximum casting all suffer with LA. Make the PC choose between BAB and maximum spells, bump the rest by a minimum to keep up with the lower end of the party, and let the racial traits be the Class Features of the Monstrous PC 'class' which LA determines your mandatory ranks in.

Is it still a little punitive? Yes. It should be. You don't get something for nothing. Would a high-LA caster be playable? I think so. Would that high-LA caster ever be the equal in magical prowess of a non-LA caster? I'd say that shouldn't happen. You don't get to play with an advantage for levels on end and, when a different build surpasses yours, claim that you should get more advantages.