The Character Workshop

[Cancer]

To question 4: God Kaze.

So, you need at minimum one level of Urban Ranger correct? Are normal exp. penalties being applied?

[God Kaze]

Originally Posted by chaosaccountant

Q4: If you're choosing between ranger and barbarian at first level, take the ranger first. That way, when you're a lvl 2 Ranger/Barbarian, you'll have 28 skill ranks and at least 9 hp (all before modifiers), rather than 22 skill ranks and at least 13 hp. With average (rather than minimum) hp rolls, there are only two hp in it, but those skill ranks never come back.

Ah, I see what you mean. Thanks for the advice.

Originally Posted by Cancer

To question 4: God Kaze.

So, you need at minimum one level of Urban Ranger correct? Are normal exp. penalties being applied?

Yup, I want to maintain 1 Level in Urban Ranger. Hmm, I'm not sure about the exp thing. I've never actually played in a game that enforced penalties on multi-classing, come to think of it. I'll have to check...

[cafune]

I couldn't think of where else to put this question but this thread--if it's too general or doesn't fit, just let me know, I'll happily delete my post.

This is my first play by post application for this site and my first application ever, really, to be honest. I've only played tabletop and IRC before, and I didn't have to apply for those. With that fact, and my rookie status on this site (I am assuming--regardless of what they say about assumptions--that more established posters will be favored in app tie-breakers. Quite understandably, if you want to have a reliable group.) I am asking for critique on my application. The DM does not want us to pick a class, so I am leaving that aside, but I'd like some feedback on my writing style--is it strong enough? Too descriptive? Needs touching up in some places?--and general feedback on the character idea I am trying to portray. Is it all forming a cohesive portrait? I wanted to express a rather average small-town girl, who would have been happy with her life if not for some not-so-gentle prodding and guiding from her mother at a young age, a mother she watched decline and sink into a meaningless death in front of her, whom perhaps subconsciously is desperate to get away from that fate, but I don't know how much of that I am seeing in the app because I know it is supposed to be there vs what actually comes through.

[wolfoh]

Your question fits just fine, cafune (do you pronounce that 'kafjoon' or 'cafoonej'?). This isn't just a workshop for class builds and technical jibber, but writing style, general tips and so on are very welcome too.

Your question is to be referred to as Q5.

Now, I don't know anything about SRD stuff, prestige classes and the technical side of character apps, but I can try to answer your question. First of all, I like your app. I have never DM'ed before so I wouldn't know if I would have chosen you, but your app gives a good, strong idea of how you want your character to be. I also really love how you give explanations to all the facets of your character, even her name! That shows that you have thought your character through.

Second thought, there are some minor spelling mistakes in your app, nothing serious: shehad in one word, line 2; spectrem, in her occupation; prescence, third paragraph of her description and personality.

I read the DM's first post because I didn't understand the 'power' and 'story' part of your app. It's wonderful how the DM wants to make the characters evolve into a class, it will be much less induced like that. Instead of giving a general description of your character with basic adjectives, you use anecdotes and examples to tell who she is. That's really good, I wonder why I've never thought of that!

Just a thought, maybe your personality/description goes a bit too far, in my opinion. The DM says in his first post to let the character's personality shimmer through in the app, but actually work it out whilst playing. Maybe you've, I wouldn't say forced, but pushed your character into a too a small corner and you will have too little space to change her during the game. I could be completely wrong, because this varies from player to player, but I know I wouldn't be able to keep myself to my application if it was that detailed. I would forget that if my character was in presence of others, she has the urge to keep talking and don't shut up. I wouldn't have witticisms at the ready every time.

But of course, I am fretting now, characters evolve. Writing applications is loads of fun, I personally love to write them. And over the course of the game, I look back upon my original application and think: "Well, that's completely wrong, my character isn't at all like that".

So here are my words of advice, overall a great application, among a lot of other good applications. The game you applied for is widely craved, hence the many applications for it. Oh, and you're right, post count is an obvious criteria, it's the curse of the newbie.

[JKTrickster]

To Question 4: God Kae

I need a better idea of why you absolutely need Urban Ranger. It's fluff is hardly special in any manner and it doesn't offer a lot really.

You ultimately want a sneaky-style character, am I right? I would avoid Assassin, it does not really help towards that goal. Would you prefer melee, ranged, or magic oriented characters?

Would you mind if I requested Swordsage? Its from Tome of Battle - see if your DM will allow it.

My other suggestions are much more squishier and might not be as combat centric as you would like.

[God Kaze]

No multi-class pentalties.

Originally Posted by JKTrickster

To Question 4: God Kae

I need a better idea of why you absolutely need Urban Ranger. It's fluff is hardly special in any manner and it doesn't offer a lot really.

You ultimately want a sneaky-style character, am I right? I would avoid Assassin, it does not really help towards that goal. Would you prefer melee, ranged, or magic oriented characters?

Would you mind if I requested Swordsage? Its from Tome of Battle - see if your DM will allow it.

My other suggestions are much more squishier and might not be as combat centric as you would like.

Urban Ranger? Mainly because I like the feel of it, it really helps me reach my above mentioned prestige classes, and I enjoy being a class that let's me write "Favoured Enemy: Catholics" on a character sheet. xD

Melee would be preferable. I don't have much love for arrows. As for magic, maybe a hint of it.

Swordsage? Are they any fun to play?

[JKTrickster]

Extremely! They have just a hint of magic, and their maneuvers allows them various benefits in combat, including Two Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Damage, Debuff, etc.

I would really recommend - you can built a decent Assassin type character with JUST swordsage, focusing on the Shadow Hand and probably Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw for backup. Really solid build that shouldn't overshadow other players. Although I warn: at very low level (< level 4) they are better than core melee fighters because their Strikes are standard actions, which are often better than normal Standard action attacks and core melee fighter don't get full attacks yet.

EDIT: You can always substitute the "feel" of Urban Ranger onto the Swordsage, it'll be fine.

And again I would advise against Assassin. It really isn't what you're looking for.

[ShadowcatX]

I've recently joined pathfinder society and have a game I'm hoping to attend next Saturday. I'm planning a druid, spirit of the beast type. It needs to be viable at low levels (having to drive 100 miles to play puts a cramp in leveling).

I'm thinking 18 str, 14 in dex, con, wis, 9 int and 7 chr. I'm considering taking the heirloom weapon trait for a bastard sword and fighting sword and board, shoulder to shoulder with my bear animal companion, until I'm a proficient wild shaper (if that ever happens).

I was wondering if anyone here has any advice about making pathfinder society characters or pathfinder druids. (I've never played a pathfinder druid before.) I'd especially appreciate information on the amount of optimization found in pathfinder society (in general, I know its impossible to say as a whole) and what organization would be a good idea to join and what type of items become available.

[cafune]

Originally Posted by wolfoh

(do you pronounce that 'kafjoon' or 'cafoonej'?)

the latter. and thank you for such an in depth response. more than i expected and incredibly helpful.

Second thought, there are some minor spelling mistakes in your app, nothing serious: shehad in one word, line 2; spectrem, in her occupation; prescence, third paragraph of her description and personality.

blarghsldfjsl how did i miss those. i read over but i suppose not closely enough. fixed.

Just a thought, maybe your personality/description goes a bit too far, in my opinion. The DM says in his first post to let the character's personality shimmer through in the app, but actually work it out whilst playing. Maybe you've, I wouldn't say forced, but pushed your character into a too a small corner and you will have too little space to change her during the game. I could be completely wrong, because this varies from player to player, but I know I wouldn't be able to keep myself to my application if it was that detailed. I would forget that if my character was in presence of others, she has the urge to keep talking and don't shut up. I wouldn't have witticisms at the ready every time.

ah. see, this is where my inexperience with the etiquette of play by play comes in. among friends, playing tabletop, if my GM had a problem with a part of my app i'd just explain that i like to have a strong foundation to build from, that i believe you can't change if there's nothing to change from--but i don't know how far the boundaries are generally in this application process, or what is within my rights to say. i already have a secret note to him about one aspect of the game, depending on if i get in or not, but i'm unsure about that, even. this is all a very new process.

So here are my words of advice, overall a great application, among a lot of other good applications. The game you applied for is widely craved, hence the many applications for it. Oh, and you're right, post count is an obvious criteria, it's the curse of the newbie.

thank you again for your thoughtful response. this has been very helpful.

[wolfoh]

It was a pleasure reviewing your application, and good luck! I'll leave your question open for a few more days, unless you think you have had enough feedback?

[JKTrickster]

I am labeling ShadowcatX question as Question #6

Druids in Pathfinder work much in the same way as they do in 3.5ed, although their wildshape ability was heavily nerfed they still have great spellcasting and a strong Animal Companion to boot. In general advice for Druids in 3.5ed mostly apply to Pathfinder as well.

Treantmonk has a wonderful guide specifically for Spirit of the Beast type Druids and I would be redundant if I didn't just forwarded his link over, so here it is! An amazing read really and details how to approach your Druid and the most important differences from 3.5ed.

But no worries about optimization - Druids are still one of the strongest classes hands down so even a little optimization should go a long way.

[GeoAvanti]

Alright, so, I'm stumbling in here to look for some opinions regarding a 3.5, 12th level Wild-Shape Druid build, based on a 34 point buy. Options are basically everything but home-brew and Dragon magazine. I have two main ideas, and I am curious to see what the optimizers here have to think about them. My biggest issue is that there is a lot of material out there that I am not familiar with.

I won't bother getting into the ability points, since as a wild-shaper, the physical stats are going to be pretty low as a matter of course, anyway, with a heavy emphasis on WIS/INT.

First Build Race: Human (Because extra feats/skill points are always useful) Classes: Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 7 Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (Claw or Bite), Practiced Spellcaster, Hover, Natural Spell (I seem to recall MoMF only grants verbal spell ability in Animal Form, making this still needed for everything else). Pros: Level 7 MoMF is just sexy. Sizes between Huge and Tiny, and all types are covered between: Animals, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Giant, Fey, Plant, Aberration. Level 7 MoMF grants that delightful Extraordinary Wild shape, granting access to the SQ of whatever form you take. Spells are not quite as terrible, as CL 9 is pretty much a sweet-spot for many of your CL bonuses. Cons: You are generally only as powerful as the creature whose form you take. Spells are still only CL 9, which is useful for the ones you have, but prevents the good higher level spells from being a 12 Druid. Animal Companion is pretty useless. Other: It does not really feel "optimized" to me, so I'd like some advice, particularly in the feat department. Only Alertness and Endurance are *needed* for entry into the MoMF class.

Option Two Race: Human (Same reason as above) Classes: Druid 5/ Warshaper 2/ Nature's Warrior 3/ MoMF 2 Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Tracking, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Natural Spell, Exalted Wild Shape Pros: More synergy from Prestige Classes. Exalted Wild shape gives you full Ex and Sq of whatever form you take. Warshaper grants extra STR/CON, as well as a dice improvement on natural weapons which, I believe, does stack with Improved Natural weapons, making anything with Rake and lots of claws very, very painful. Nature's Warrior Armaments: Serpent's Coils (Plus to Grapple, Constrict), Armor of Crocodile (+3 Improvement to Natural Armor). Cons: What's a Reflex save? Exalted Wild Shape has a limited variety of choices. Basic Wild shape lacks diversity as other build-- restricted to Small-Large Animals, Humanoids, Giants. No Sq of assumed forms beyond Exalted list. Warshaper does not grant HD toward Wildshape, putting available forms at a total of 10HD, down from 12HD. Animal Companion is still pretty useless. Spells are only at CL 6. Other: Focus is more likely to be on big creatures with Grab and many claws in order to make use of Rake, such as a Dire Lion, which would have a +25 Grapple check, if my math is right-- on top of 2d6 claws and rake, and has constrict. Now, my math simply being wrong may account for errors here, so if I did something stupid or grievously wrong, please correct me. This build is much more likely to have one or two favored forms, rather than the sheer, bloody diversity of the first one.

In particular, options for varying amounts of PrC levels or alternative feat selections I am open to the most. Also, if there are particularly awesome forms that would benefit from select feats, I would greatly appreciate having them pointed out, as once things get beyond the first MM, I quickly begin to have no idea what is being talked about.

[JKTrickster]

I am labeling GeoAvanti's question as Question # 7

I would.........go with neither actually.

How open are you to alternative races?

Anthromorphic Bat for a heavy Wis bonus sounds nice, don't you think? It's from Savage Species, and provides other nice goodies.

Grab Natural Spell and Greenbound Summoning. Any other feats don't matter as much. These two? Are all it takes to optimize the Druid.

Is there a reason why you are focusing on MoMF? It's a strong class but Druids wildshape perfectly as they are. Grab any Monster Manual book and you'll do fine. MoMF loses out on Druid Spellcasting, a MAJOR feature of the Druid.

You'll do much better with just plain old Druid. Become a Bear that rides a bear while summoning bears can often be pretty unbearable for your foes

If you want to be even more optimized take Planar Shepherd. You've just won the game. Yes, even that one. Since I know the campaign you'll be a part of, I suggest it with a good conscience.

EDIT:
Do you need some wildshape tips? Generally you take some forms and stick to those, focusing on one for scouting, one for combat (by having lots of natural attacks or improved grab or something), and cherry pick as you go.

The Animal Companion is REALLY important, and something you have to choose wisely. A well built Animal Companion is a Fighter-Lite and can rip opponents apart.

If you want to break the game, grab Dal Quor. There I said it.

[GeoAvanti]

I had never even heard of Anthropomorphic Animals or Greenbound Summoning until you mentioned them. When I looked them up, I just have to say that I am pretty damn appalled at how broken they are.

My kick with MoMF was with the versatility brought on by being able to use Wild shape on numerous other forms besides only Animals, especially in being able to gain the SQs of some rather notorious creatures, or creatures with abilities such as energy resistance, or other such selective uses. Frankly, most of my knowledge is restricted to the Complete and Races books, with the occasional addition such as Libris Mortis or Sandstorm, and the added benefits to Wild shaping seemed more useful than just basic Druid. However, not having actually gotten to play a druid at any meaningful level, I have no idea what actually works and what does not.

I have never even heard of Planar Shepherd, nor do I have the Faiths of Eberron book to check it out, unfortunately.

Wildshape: Yeah, tips on some of the more useful forms would be greatly appreciated.

Animal Companion: Do you have any particular ones that are overly useful in particular? I had always had my eye on the Giant Crocodile, but never had the chance to play in a game at a high enough level to get one.

[CE2JRH]

Level 7 MoMF grants that delightful Extraordinary Wild shape, granting access to the SQ of whatever form you take.

That's theoretical optimization. You're not supposed to actually use it in a game. Also, make sure your DM knows that he needs to houserule spellcasting to be none of (Ex, Sp, or Su) but some magical 4th type that can never be acquired by Extraodinary wildshape or assume supernatural power.

If you want to be even more optimized take Planar Shepherd. You've just won the game. Yes, even that one. Since I know the campaign you'll be a part of, I suggest it with a good conscience.

Come on, that's not in good conscience. There is no such things a Planar Shepherd in good conscience.

Just go druid 20. It's classy and still vastly more powerful than anything but a different well built Tier 1.