3.5e Gestalt Characters Discussion

[Valientar]

Hello all,

I started this thread to discuss Gestalt character issues.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...Characters.htm

I pose some questions:

What happens if at higher level someone takes classes that accelerate caster level progression. Example: Wizard 4//Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1
Would that resolve to Wizard 5 caster level and Cleric 4? Another example: Wizard 6//Rogue5/Arcane Trickster 1. Does this resolves to a 7th caster level?
Yet another example: Wizard6/Fighter1 // Rogue5/Arcane Trickster1/Assasin 1 (the important point here is that the arcane trickster is taken together with the 6th wizard level what would this resolve to?)

A possible solution is to take the best of caster levels. So example: Wizard6/Fighter1 // Rogue5/Arcane Trickster1/Assasin 1 would still resolve on Caster level 6 as the other side caster levels would not stack only account as caster level 1.

In several places I saw that DM's limit available prestige classes, require that you take a prestige class on the side where the requirements are set. So actually handling it as two different characters and then picking up the best numeric values of each and all different class benefits.

For example: Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2 // Fighter 5/Sorcerer 2/Arcane Archer 1 Could be a valid character!
It would generate a Cleric caster level 5, Wizard caster level 5, and a Sorcerer caster level 2.
Each of the sides can be valid independent characters.

What are your opinions on the issue.

Thank you

[chaosaccountant]

You need to check the rules on PrCs in gestalt. From what you linked above:

A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes

There's also the 'Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class' rule. Since, in your Wis6/Fgt1//Rog5/ArT1/Ass1 build, both Wizard and Arcane Trickster get 'spellcasting advancement as Wizard', you only get the feature once. In the same way as you couldn't take Rogue1//Something1, then level Rogue//Sneak-attack varient fighter, and claim sneak-attack at every level.

[Valientar]

Originally Posted by chaosaccountant

You need to check the rules on PrCs in gestalt. From what you linked above:

There's also the 'Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class' rule. Since, in your Wis6/Fgt1//Rog5/ArT1/Ass1 build, both Wizard and Arcane Trickster get 'spellcasting advancement as Wizard', you only get the feature once. In the same way as you couldn't take Rogue1//Something1, then level Rogue//Sneak-attack varient fighter, and claim sneak-attack at every level.

What if: Wiz6/Fgt1//Rog5/Ass1/ArT1 in this case the ArT caster level would stack? Isn't that weired?
Ok I know that this is a weird Gestalt it would be better shown like: Wiz6/ArT1//Rog5/Ass1/Ftr1.

I guess for Gestalt to work nicely both players and DM must not abuse it.
I also have the suspicion that a character does not take the best at each advancement but the best of the two sides as a whole.
So:
Wizard 5/Fighter 1//Rogue 5/Arc Trickster 1
would compare Caster level 5 vs Caster level 1.

Actually: Wiz6/Fgt1//Rog5/Ass1/ArT1
Should give wiz caster level 6, assassin caster level 2.

Easy to lose track...

[JimRazor]

True. Gestalt works best when both dm and player work together to not be broken. Unfortunately it is easy to break said system...
Now. RAW states that your casting must be separated so that build will have a separate CL for wizard and a separate one for assassin. In which case. You would have to choose whether you are progressing your assassin spell casting or your wizard spell casting. The way you have it written there, you would be progressing your assassin side since it is on that side of the gestalt. So the way you have it written keeps you at CL 6 wizard and CL 2 assassin. Yet you would still have two separate spell lists and spells per day and save DCs since they would not be the same. So depending on the spell cast and which spell list the character got it from, so they would have a different caster level. You don't pick which caster level, so you can't cast an assassins spell at CL 5. You take the best for the class as a whole, so you just have to be careful by taking the best at each level

[Taureus]

@ Valientar: You're still using a usually prohibited PrC in your example.

Arcane Trickster = rogue+arcane caster, so it's most often not allowed.

The SRD/UA don't go into all the reasons/examples why, but putting it plainly, it is possible to have 9th-level arcane/divine spellcasting, sneak attack, and quite a few other goodies with a gestalt character if DMs don't keep dual-progression PrCs and two PrCs simultaneously prohibited.

@JimRazor: Just because it's on the same side of the progression, that doesn't mean it must progress that sides in terms of caster level/etc advancement.

You could choose to progress the wizard or assassin *if* Arcane Trickster was allowed by the DM (most use the rules from the SRD/UA, so it wouldn't be).

[Mystic Lemur]

As has been mentioned, PrCs (and feats, generally) that advance the features of two classes simultaneously are not for use with Gestalt characters. That said, it has been my experience that they can be used without much abuse so long as you require them to treat each half of the Gestalt independently.

For example. a Ftr 10 // Wiz 3/ Clr 3/ Mystic Theurge 4 would normally not be allowed under gestalt rules. However, since the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge were earned with only one half of the Gestalt, it isn't any more overpowered than a typical Gestalt. Same thing goes for a Ftr 10 // Rog 3/ Swash 7 with that feat that increases sneak attack with Swashbuckler levels.

I hope that made sense. ???

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by Mystic Lemur

As has been mentioned, PrCs (and feats, generally) that advance the features of two classes simultaneously are not for use with Gestalt characters. That said, it has been my experience that they can be used without much abuse so long as you require them to treat each half of the Gestalt independently.

For example. a Ftr 10 // Wiz 3/ Clr 3/ Mystic Theurge 4 would normally not be allowed under gestalt rules. However, since the prerequisites for Mystic Theurge were earned with only one half of the Gestalt, it isn't any more overpowered than a typical Gestalt. Same thing goes for a Ftr 10 // Rog 3/ Swash 7 with that feat that increases sneak attack with Swashbuckler levels.

I hope that made sense. ???

perfect sense.

[Grenadier]

If I'm not mistaken, if you tried to do something like take a level of wizard along with a level of arcane trickster then you still only get one more level of spells because it is the same class feature so you only get one of them. It has been a while since I read the gestalt rules though.

[Fil kearney]

that's right. Unless as mentioned above, there were an alternate spell casting class that qualifies for advancement.. then it would default to the alternate.

One variation I would use for dual progression classes like this is if the player wants to take arcane trickster, then "skip" the gestalt for the level.
A 17th level character could look like this...
wizard7//rogue7-->arcanetrickster3-->wizard4//rogue4
at level 8, 9, 10, both sides of the gestalt are consumed by the single advancement of arcane trickster, then starting at level 11, resumed progression of both wizard and rogue simultaneously.

This method really makes qualifying for the more exotic PrC's easy, and tends to balance well against tier 2 & 3 builds

[Sauragnmon]

If I recall, that was the way it was done in a group I was in a long time ago, where Gestalt was the norm, was that if you take a PrC level you take ONLY the PrC level, so things didn't get a little above and beyond. I think the requirement to qualify for a PrC with only one half of the Gestalt and then apply only to that half of the Gestalt is similarly a good theory, since it would prevent somebody from going to ECL3-4 and then popping a PrC like the Theurge because they're, say, Warmage 3//Favoured Soul 3. But I guess there are Two ways you can adjudicate the Prestige Class and the Gestalt, and each has its balances:

1 - All Qualifications are on One half of the Gestalt (Fighter 6//Warmage 3/Favoured Soul 3) --> Fighter 7//Warmage 3/Favoured Soul3/Theurge 1) -- You qualify on one half of your gestalt for the prestige class, the prestige class counts on That half of your Gestalt. Slower progression, more power in the end.

2 - Qualifications on Both halves of the Gestalt. (Warmage 3//Favoured Soul 3) --> (Warmage 3//Theurge 1//Favoured Soul 3) -- Use both halves of the Gestalt to qualify for your Prestige Class, Prestige Class counts as Both halves when taken. Faster gain, Less Effectiveness.


That's how I see it really, though I'm a newbie to the board, I figured this is a good way to explain both ways to approach Prestige Classes with Gestalt Characters.