[OOC] Around the Table

[hippo]

Anyone who has feedback or questions about what I am aiming for, or who wants to provide suggestions for Shadow Themes is welcome to post here. I'll try and answer questions. This will help guide me as a first-time DM as I prepare for the game.

[Guyv]

I would guess every player is not being brought back as a revenant, but as their living breathing self? But on the same token, how would revenants be handled? Also this working outside the process, would that cause trouble for divine classes?

Looks interesting so far, the artifact idea is especially cool. Those are just the first three questions I can picture someone asking.

[hippo]

Good questions - I don't know that I have solid answers yet (a main reason to chat with friends beforehand.)

Races
There are a couple things which worry me about races. First is the Shadowfell-related races: Revenants, Shadar-kai, Shades, Vryloka, potentially things like Dark Ones (which I suppose could show up in the upcoming Shadowfell book.) Having the revived characters be non-shadow-related will be important to the storyline and premise. Shades in particular which actually gain the Shadow origin may be especially problematic. Revenants with their specific ties to the Raven Queen also pose significant story issues which would need to be sorted out.

Constructs, I suppose, could pose a similar problem. Are they truly "souled" and would a resurrection absent the actual body work properly? Raise Dead normally requires the body, this is clearly done absent the body. I could just answer "yes" here and move along, but I may want to think about this.

An option would be to allow these troublesome races to join from the Shadowfell, and not be among the revived. That difference would also complicate things somewhat as the artifacts are the means of the resurrection. Not sure how I would handle a magic item for these "native" characters.

Classes and Religion
Divine classes don't worry me overly. The divine connection is not lost with death. This is a true revival, but with some limitations. So mechanically this shouldn't pose any large issues. Storywise it might indeed be interesting fodder. Especially for a Raven Queen worshipper.

The Vampire class might prove troublesome with the revival. A vamp may be required to join afterwards, like some of the troublesome races.

An option would be to simply disallow the troublesome races and classes - but in general I don't like limiting things.

[Phil]

Looks like fun. I take it you'll be using the Shadowfell book being released soon? Interested to see what that's like.

Some possible passive theme benefits might be:
-Vision Upgrade (IE, if your race has normal vision, it becomes low light vision, if it already has low light vision, it becomes darkvision. If it already has darkvision maybe blindsight, but not sure if you'd want to take it that far)
-"Racial" necrotic resistance, ie, 5+1/2 level
-"Racial" cold resistance
-+5 bonus to death saving throws

That sort of thing.

[hippo]

Yeah- the timing if the game is so that I can use the new Shadowfell book. Been planning the game (in rough terms) for a couple months now. The improved vision level was one of the items I'll offer. In fact when I ran my suggestion for the game by Zombzeez and Cidolfas a while back it was my one firm suggestions. The resistances are a great idea. I just need to decide whether pcs can mix and match theme powers or whether I should build themes to enable real decisions. Thanks for the input.

[hippo]

Okay - here are the ideas I am pondering with for the various themes.

Passive Powers:
- Vision Upgrade
- Necrotic Resistance
- Cold Resistance
- Death saving throw bonus
- Concealment upgrade in dim light (partial when moving, total when stationary ?)

Active Powers: (Most of these mirror racial or class abilities)
- Dark Step (dark one racial) - Encounter, Move, Move 4, gain +4 vs. opportunity attacks, gain combat advantage against any creature ends move adjacent to. (Dark Ones have this as an at-will).
- Shadow Jaunt (shadar-kai racial) - Encounter, Move, Teleport 3 squares and become insubstantial until start of next turn.
- Shade- Encounter, Minor. Become insubstantial until ENT or hit with radiant attack.
- Fade- Encounter, Minor. Become invisible until attack or SNT. (similar to Gnome Fade Away power, but actively triggered, and doesn't last as long.)
- Phase- Encounter, Minor, gain phasing until ENT or hit with a radiant attack.

I can either let folks mix and match these abilities, or I can restrict them into groupings that make sense.

I am thinking of not making themes from these, as that requires a lot of picking and choosing of powers for the later levels.

Another possibility which struck my mind (but may be a bit overpowered) is granting the ability for a character to be considered a member of one of the shadow races/classes for feat purposes. Dunno. Still pondering.

[EngrInAZ]

I like what you are putting together, sounds very interesting.

Here are my two cents:

• I would lean towards restricting the races to non-shadow. It may be limiting for the players but I think it fits better with the story line.
• I like the list of powers.
• I would let the players mix and match the Passive and Active powers to add some more choices (make up for the racial restrictions I guess).
• I kind-of like the idea of allowing feats from the shadow races. I don’t think it is overpowered because they are not getting extra feats just expanding the choices and they are in the shadowfell.

[saratek187]

Here are my two cents even though I have applied:

• Again, restricting shadow/undead races is a wonderful idea. As far as the constructs, I would have to say that not allowing them would be better for the continuity of the game. It's debatable whether a living construct has a soul, but I would say no. Given there is very few constructs available for use and mechanically they can be replaced by a variety of races, I wouldn't allow them. It just makes it easier to not have to explain why the construct was destroyed, as opposed to killed, and passed on through the spiritual plane to the Shadowfell.
• The powers are good and the ability to mix and match is good for characters with a theme. You may have those that lean towards certain ones for the mechanical advantage, but overall none of them are powerful enough to really impact much.
• The allowing of feats from the shadow races upon gaining a NEW level during play is a wonderful idea. With the characters coming in at 3rd level, they would be normal characters prior to joining the Shadowfell and thus being tainted by it. Powers that are restricted to undead might also be a possibility, but they will prove to be much more difficult to implement as they usually modify something an undead already has.
• As far as the artifact, the level you put out of CL+1 is questionable when it will also have the abilities you presented. Depending on how freely you are going to make up for the lack of magical items the Revived start with, it might be better to go with CL for item level as the extra abilities attached really up the items significantly. When I made my sheet and looked over options for the base magical item I would use for the artifact, I found that the biggest bonus between level 3 and 4 was something minor like + Enhancement Bonus to a skill. With you having the Resistances and Abilities the way they are, the artifacts will be increased significantly in level thus creating a divide between the Revived and Guide characters as far as an even average magic item level.

[hippo]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

A couple responses:

• Mixing and matching powers seems like a winner - it is what I have presented.
• I like allowing the shadow feats for the Revived when they gain new levels. I'll work on a list that make sense, and we can always modify a few things.
• @saratek187: your point about the additional power of the artifact is well taken, but I am not too concerned. The idea was originally to write some Shadow Themes like those presented in Dark Sun. Mechanically the revival process introduces a theme and a magic item. To balance the Guides (assuming there are any) they would simply need a Theme that is equivalent - a feature plus an encounter power. Assuming a Guide is picked I think we can manage to find something there.
• I also feel fairly comfortable with the construct decision. We'll have to see if anyone even proposes a Revived construct. So far the only construct mentioned anywhere would be a Guide.

All in all I expect this to be a give and take to get interesting characters where the world meshes properly.

I am going to take some of these questions as well as some others I've gotten in PM and add a section about them in the first post.

[saratek187]

Well realistically, the Guides could have the same artifact. Others most likely ended up as Revived prior to this group, and if that's the case they would have gotten the same artifact. Given their time in the Shadowfell, they would know the place and thus have gained some new items as well.

[hippo]

If we get Guides that work we could take that approach. The point of the Guides mainly is to provide an option if someone really wants to play one of the forbidden characters. As stated, I would be perfectly happy to have no Guides, which would make it not much of an issue.

Thanks again for the info.

[Phil]

Had a thought regarding one of the potential bonuses available to the PCs:

Obscuring Shadows: If moving 2 squares or fewer, you are partially obscured in bright light, and heavily obscured in dim light. (Still not sure about this one.)

Seems quite strong. I think changing it to a version of the Warlock class feature Shadow Walk would be better: "On your turn, if you move at least 3 squares away from where you started your turn, you gain concealment until the end of your next turn."

Just my opinion: total concealment is very strong.

[hippo]

I agree. That would be a better way to go. The Blackguard Paladin also gets a similar power.

[saratek187]

Hey, after reading what you put in the app thread, I had a thought on these Artifacts given that each is a physical item:

Why don't you refer to them as Soul X, X being the type of item. Soul Blade, Soul Shield, Soul Orb, Soul Wand, etc. Being that they are basically an item that is used to hold our soul and thus give us physical bodies, it could be a way to go with it.

[hippo]

In my original proposal message to bounce the idea off of Cid and Zbz, I called them Soul Shards. Then the Heroes of Shadows books went off talking about how everyone sacrificed a shard of their souls to the Shadowfell to get shadow magic. Alas - the name became somewhat taken.

The other piece I haven't quite come to grips on is that the soul isn't really held in the artifact as much as a portion of the soul is used to craft the artifact. Really the character is still a spirit, but made physical again by the artifact. Soul Sword is already used by the Death Knight monster and is literally a sword which houses the entire soul of the undead, and which is destroyed when the character is destroyed. If anything, this is the exact opposite of that.