In need of Pathfinder Experts to teach and run

[ShadowcatX]

Originally Posted by Ange

The Adventure Paths wouldn't be good for a system like what WoLT proposes without some tweaking. They assume people follow them from part 1 to part 6 (or longer in the case of the older Dungeon mag paths). You can probably pull ideas out of them, or even run them individually with some tweaking.

A better idea would be to stick to the Modules line, and/or the Pathfinder Society modules (although these typically won't give enough exp for 1 level). Or mine Dungeon magazines for ideas.

I personally have an enormous stack of PDFs of modules and adventures that I would unabashedly raid for a game like this...

Agreed. I merely pointed out APs to show that premade adventures are not the junk he seemed to think they were.

[ShadowcatX]

I'll jump in and help with that if you like, but it probably won't be before next week sometime, over time is kicking my tail, along side moving to a new building.

[WoLT]

Just let me know when you're ready...

Right now I'm finishing up a few more things that are necessary before we are ready to bring in the dev team...

But right now I think it's time for sleep

Also, I wouldn't presume all adventures are junk, and even a junk adventure run by a good GM with a good group will be loads of fun. Systems and adventures and all that stuff is all well and good, but at the end of the day I'm a firm believer in the notion that a good group is what makes the fun, not the dice, the module, setting, rules system or anything of the sort.

More or less I was suggesting the notion that home brew potential here has unique things about it that make it more attractive.

[Mystic Lemur]

Maybe I missed it, but I would recommend standardizing starting gold. 150gp is the number PFS chose, and it seems reasonable for every class. Some (mostly Heavy Armor Proficient classes) would love more, I'm sure, but them's the breaks.

I also see where you're going with the XP system. You want something simple (like PFS) while still allowing lee-way based on what the GM decides to throw at them, and whether the PCs even encounter it all. I just want to caution you not to make it too clunky. Getting down to 5xp for this game element or that is getting there.

Oh, and interested. I can start out doing sheet audits and such until I get some more PbP experience.

[WoLT]

Originally Posted by Mystic Lemur

Maybe I missed it, but I would recommend standardizing starting gold. 150gp is the number PFS chose, and it seems reasonable for every class. Some (mostly Heavy Armor Proficient classes) would love more, I'm sure, but them's the breaks.

I also see where you're going with the XP system. You want something simple (like PFS) while still allowing lee-way based on what the GM decides to throw at them, and whether the PCs even encounter it all. I just want to caution you not to make it too clunky. Getting down to 5xp for this game element or that is getting there.

Oh, and interested. I can start out doing sheet audits and such until I get some more PbP experience.

Hey ML! just so everyone knows, ML was involved with the first incarnation of this project and can thus help with another experienced voice.

(Sadly, sleep didn't happen like I wanted it to)

The standard starting wealth (eternity mote) is something I wanted to implement as well. Honestly a few gold means nothing after level 3, and it does cause some buggyness... I'm possibly considering doing a small bump for martial classes though... again something to bring to the devs...

And the xp thing, that's precisely the idea, plus there are other ways to earn xp besides just adventuring, but the target is still 100 for an adventure and adventuring is the fastest way to level, the other stuff all helps, but isn't geared to level the way an adventure would.

I am considering lowering the encounter types or suggesting they be consolidated, but I think that's something I'll raise with the Dev group as we get closer.

I'll get you to work asap ML, we won't be doing audits until we get the source dev done though... that's gonna be a bit until we discuss all the potential rules sets and such, as well as character options and also I'm rebranding the place with Croakamancer to make the setting more "alive" and interesting, something that stands out as unique and interesting...

There is a bunch of things that do need immediate attention though. If you have time, start pouring through varient rules as we're going to need recommendations on those, at least as a start point for discussions.

Keep game balance in mind when analyzing with a secondary concern of fun and tertiary concern of simplicity/low paperwork.

I would get on it but I'm already buried in construction efforts.

[WoLT]

Good news, basic construction is almost there enough for the Devs to see! couple more days and we'll be ready to rock and roll on a bunch of these brainstorm ideas and other issues.

[Mystic Lemur]

Let's see.

Armor as DR I like the flavor of this rule, but have never used it myself. The main reason I've never used it: I just think it would take too long to implement. Call it Fear of Change, or maybe just Inertia. Most people already understand how AC works. It may not be very realistic, but it is pretty simple. Armor as DR is a bit more realistic (see below for some wonky), but at the cost of some of that simplicity. The second issue, is getting used to the fact that everyone is going to get hit, almost every attack. You are lowering the "to-hit" threshold without lowering attack bonuses. The mage who puts up mage armor is trading being 20% harder to hit for DR 4/magic (or adamantine, if you consider mage armor to be magic armor. A reasonable interpretation). Psychologically, at first level I'd rather be missed by that 1d8 arrow than hit and take 4 less damage, even if the effect is the same on average. The Paladin in Full Plate is going to be hit nearly every turn if he dumps Dex. He would be trading being 45% harder to hit for DR 9/magic (or adamantine if it's magic full plate). Up against another front line type fighter he's getting hit every round, and I just don't know how useful that 9 points of reduction is when you're hit every round. But then it gets a little wonky. That same Paladin with +1 Full Plate never has to worry about some weapons. A light crossbow can never damage him, short of using Adamantine Bolts. A firing squad of light crossbows could never hurt him. You're trading one 'unrealistic' situation for another. In combination with the above, it means that lightly armored classes like Rogues and Sorcerers are easier to hit, and still relatively squishy, but heavy armor classes like Fighters and Paladins will get hit a lot more, but are effectively immune to mooks. And it makes weapons with static damage (crossbows) worthless against heavy armor, which seems like the opposite of real life. Lastly, Armor as DR also comes with a new way to confirm crits where the Defender has to make a roll based on a DC set by the attack roll and feats of the Attacker. More rolls, or in this case splitting up the same amount of rolls between more people, is a sure way to make combat take longer. Especially in PbP. I'll say again that I like the rule, but have never used it. All of the above is speculation, so take with a grain of salt.

Called Shots As soon as I saw the header I groaned. In my experience Called Shots are either broken or completely ignored. As impressed as I was with how they handled it (for instance, true strike doesn't work on called shots), I think this rule will fall into the "Ignored" camp. The main reason it that the best Called Shot effects can only affect higher level characters. A called shot must do at least 50 points of damage to be considered Critical or Debilitating. Otherwise it just counts as a regular called shot. The regular called shots aren't terrible though. A called shot to the arm, for instance, is made at -2 and inflicts -2 on attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks using that arm for 1d4 rounds. A called shot to the head takes a -5 and sickens the target for 1d4 rounds. A called shot to an instantly fatal spot like the heart takes a -10 penalty and is only ever treated as a regular hit unless it does that all-important 50 points of damage. In all, this version of Called Shots seems very flavorful, and not completely useless. More importantly, it seems like it isn't easy to abuse. As long as the player using the mechanic understands how it works, and the DM knows where to go to double check, it doesn't seem like it will be a problem. Interacting with the Armor as DR rule, heavily armored characters are highly resistant to called shots from low damage weapons because DR still applies. Rogues being the exception.

Piecemeal Armor Now this I like. These rules are flavorful, not too complicated, and are likely to be used by players. The best use that I can see: it allows a Heavy Armor character to work their way up to Full Plate one piece at a time, but still have incentive to upgrade that last piece, say, from chain leggings to plate. I don't see this being abused, as the rules for handling ACP and Spell Failure are actually more restrictive with Piecemeal Armor.

And that's all I have time for right now.

[Ange]

Armor as DR is a cool idea but I think it's more work than is really necessary, especially if you expect new players. Easier to just say "If someone hits this number you get hurt" than get into the complexity of reducing damage and etc. If you want to introduce some more realism into combat scenes (i.e. someone getting stabbed by 5 goblins and emerging alive) then just describe "hits" as near misses, parries, dodges, armor being worn down, and general battle fatigue.

Called Shots are... eh. I see "called shots" as being critical hits and precision damage.

Piecemeal Armor doesn't work too well imo because you can mix and match to get better AC with higher max Dex scores and lower AC penalty than standard armor. And again, it adds complexity without a whole lot of benefit to it.
EDIT: Also, really, after about level 3 everyone has the type of armor they want until the end of the game (sans magical enchantments). It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

To be honest, Paizo's subsystems are often wonky at best, and utterly unusable at worst. There are some exceptions to this, though (haunts for example).

[ShadowcatX]

I agree with Ange on everything. (As usual.)

Its funny, paizo can do so much, but stuff like that, minor add ons and the like, just fail. Words of Power for example, a great idea, but a cringe worthy execution.

[WoLT]

Overall at a quivk glance even though the rules look fun, we.do cater to noobs in this game as well as hardcoreoptimizers... So far these seem to increase the spread of power, between optimizers and noobs, all while adding more book keeping and complexity, making me not so in favor of them. I am sure these are great for private games, but not so sure on trying to teach noibs piecemail armor rules and then trying to explain why partial suits are worth more than full when it's just easier to say leather is leather and you can assume it can be customized to the look of your character but rremains the same mechanical AC.

[WoLT]

Originally Posted by ShadowcatX

I agree with Ange on everything. (As usual.)

Its funny, paizo can do so much, but stuff like that, minor add ons and the like, just fail. Words of Power for example, a great idea, but a cringe worthy execution.

Please explain, I was looking to put thasilonian tattoos into the game, but I believe that they are used similar to words of power...

How do either or both of those impact the game in your opinion shadow?

[Mystic Lemur]

Wounds and Vigor Just no. Not noob friendly. Not really GM friendly. Hit points work just fine thank-you-very-much. If we want to implement anything like this, I'd say the "Bloody" condition from 4e. Once something has taken half of its hp in damage, it is visibly wounded. That way everyone can easily track who is badly wounded without metagaming, and who needs healing (or who to finish off first).

That's my opinions on the variants WoLT linked to. Here's one I'd like to bring up for consideration. Hero Points are a lot stronger than I remember them from d20 Modern, stronger even than 4e's Action Point mechanic. To keep them from being overpowered, each character is capped at only 3 Hero Points at any one time and only automatically gain 1/lvl. This could be a good way to reward players for things they do both IC and OOC. You could even increase the point cap at different tiers, to provide an extra reward to those who contribute significantly.

As for playing non-core races, I'm for it. PFS has, in the past, given race boons to players at Conventions or other special reasons. We could do something similar. It might be best to wait until the Races Guide comes out, though.

[WoLT]

My first thoughts on Hero Points:

(overall I think it's a good idea to implement because these are fun mechanics that require almost no extra work and enhance the game for the players and GM, but would like to discuss further)

Either ban them entirely or restrict as follows:

Only awarded for: Leveling 1/level. Max 3

Temporary points awarded for:
Heroic Acts: Whenever a character performs an exceptionally heroic act, she can be awarded a hero point. This might include anything from slaying an evil dragon when the rest of the group has fled to rescuing townsfolk from a burning building despite being terribly wounded. It does not have to be related to combat. Convincing the reticent king to send troops to help with a bandit problem or successfully jumping a wide chasm might earn a character a hero point, depending on the circumstances. Note that a hero point should only be awarded if the PC involved did not spend a hero point to accomplish the task.
Faith: In a campaign where the gods play an important role in every character’s life, hero points might represent their favor. In such a setting, the GM can award hero points to characters whenever they uphold the tenets of their faith in a grand way, or whenever they take on one of the faith’s major enemies. Such hero points might be temporary, and if not spent on the task at hand, they fade away.

temporary points always expire at the adventures end or sooner (at GMs discretion, though they must say if it will expire before the end of the adventure).

Using Hero Points:
Bonus: If used before a roll is made, a hero point grants you a +8 luck bonus to any one d20 roll. If used after a roll is made, this bonus is reduced to +4. You can use a hero point to grant this bonus to another character, as long as you are in the same location and your character can reasonably affect the outcome of the roll (such as distracting a monster, shouting words of encouragement, or otherwise aiding another with the check). Hero Points spent to aid another character grant only half the listed bonus (+4 before the roll, +2 after the roll).
Extra Action: You can spend a hero point on your turn to gain an additional standard or move action this turn.
Inspiration: If you feel stuck at one point in the adventure, you can spend a hero point and petition the GM for a hint about what to do next. If the GM feels that there is no information to be gained, the hero point is not spent.
Reroll: You may spend a hero point to reroll any one d20 roll you just made. You must take the results of the second roll, even if it is worse.
Cheat Death: A character can spend 2 hero points to cheat death. How this plays out is up to the GM, but generally the character is left alive, with negative hit points but stable. For example, a character is about to be slain by a critical hit from an arrow. If the character spends 2 hero points, the GM decides that the arrow pierced the character’s holy symbol, reducing the damage enough to prevent him from being killed, and that he made his stabilization roll at the end of his turn. Cheating death is the only way for a character to spend more than 1 hero point in a turn. The character can spend hero points in this way to prevent the death of a familiar, animal companion, eidolon, or special mount, but not another character or NPC.

Hero points are only gained via leveling temporary hero points from heroic acts and faith may be granted within an adventure but do not get added to the character sheet and generally expire shortly after they are awarded in the adventure.

Antiheroes not included, all characters regardless of alignment or demeanor use this system.

Hero Point Feats & Spells are allowed

Hero point magic items are available at mingots and through the enchanter.

feedback appreciated

If anyone else sees other rules they think we should look at, start bringing them please

[ShadowcatX]

Originally Posted by WoLT

Please explain, I was looking to put thasilonian tattoos into the game, but I believe that they are used similar to words of power...

How do either or both of those impact the game in your opinion shadow?

Did you mean Thassilonian runes or varisian tattoos perhaps because I haven't found thasilonian tattoos. Either way they both supplement the current magic system.

Words of Power more or less entirely replace existing magic. Its significantly limited compared to spell casting (sad enough to say since it is designed to be open), noob unfriendly, and hasn't received a bit of support since it got released in ultimate magic.

------

Traits are fairly well used and liked. They give players a bit of customization and a slight boost of power, and if we use the errata / bannings they use in pfs I don't believe there should be any problems with them.

[WoLT]

Originally Posted by ShadowcatX

Did you mean Thassilonian runes or varisian tattoos perhaps because I haven't found thasilonian tattoos. Either way they both supplement the current magic system.

Words of Power more or less entirely replace existing magic. Its significantly limited compared to spell casting (sad enough to say since it is designed to be open), noob unfriendly, and hasn't received a bit of support since it got released in ultimate magic.

------

Traits are fairly well used and liked. They give players a bit of customization and a slight boost of power, and if we use the errata / bannings they use in pfs I don't believe there should be any problems with them.

that sounds exactly like something to avoid.

what I was talking about was these: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/thassilonian-runes


I will add the Varisian tattoos to the parlor also though, I didn't come across them yet, thanks for that

If there are other tattoos besides psychic (already got those) please mention those as well.