New DM with campaign start troubles

[hyenaofleisure]

Well, where to start? I'm brand new to the DM thing, with very little experience at actually playing, I started my first campaign on Thursday with a few people at my school's D&D club, and I'm already facing 3 big issues.

first off) The party is fairly large, 7 people total so far(a wizard, a warlock, a warlord, a fighter, a ranger, a cleric, and a paladin.) and may or may not be faced with one or even two more people interested in joining. So, its a large party, and I'm unsure how to handle it considering the start of the adventure involves exploring very tight quarters in deep mine shafts, trying to find the cause of some mysterious disappearances.

Secondly) two of the 7 party members(the warlock and paladin specifically) were not able to play the first game, so they are a bit behind, no combat has started yet, however using a pully controlled elevator to go down the mines, the warrior had a small 'accident' breaking the pully, and sending the 5 party members to the bottom level. So I'm not sure how to possibly get the other two(and possible add on's) into the mine.

lastly) I already have a bit of a lawlessness issue, the mine director's office door was locked, and the warlord, fighter and cleric broke in, they searched the room, and ended up going for theft. I don't want to just say no to them, but I am wondering how I sort of 'guide' them away from such behaviors, as it might end up causing trouble later in the game. I want to be fair, but know I need to crack down on this soon.

[WoLT]

part 1) 7 is too many for a starter GM, but that's a bit late... my advice is that if some drop, let them and continue with the more dedicated players.

part 2) use a different mine shaft entrance. draw one in on the map.

Part 3) adventurers kill things and take loot. The only way to steer them away from this is not to go in a dungeon to begin with and instead make the adventure RP centric.

I would strongly recommend the guides in my signature. While they are PBP focussed, many of the skills and tools there are easily transferable.

Enjoy!

[chaosaccountant]

• The large party is your most serious problem. Very few DMs ever get comfortable running for seven people, and nine is just getting silly. If it's feasible, it might be worth splitting into two games (assuming you can find another DM); this has the added advantage of letting more than one concept run at the same time, which will help when some of your nine want to kill things and take stuff, and others want to marry the princess and bring democracy to the town's folk.
  Assuming that isn't feasible, there are some tricks that can help. Delegate as much as possible - have a party leader (chosen by the party) relay things to you, and try to keep things simple until everyone is up to speed. With regard to the tight quarters, the obvious solution is to open them up, so a 10' passage becomes a 15' passage. Make sure encounter take place at intersections, in chambers, and otherwise in place where the 'battle lines' are only a couple of squares long.
• They found, and took, the stairs. Or the smaller cargo-lift, which none of the others noticed because it was behind some rubble.
• Why is this a problem? If they took a bunch of stuff they'll never get caught for, then they took a bunch of stuff - it will soon disappear as they become fantastically wealthy anyway. If they try the same in a town, the town guard will come down on them, assuming they get caught.

[Mystic Lemur]

The best advice I can give you for running a large party is to keep everyone focused as best you can, and to try to keep OOC conversations away from the table. When 8 people start having 6 different conversations, it will quickly melt down your game and your patience.

Do as much pre-rolling as you can. If you know there's going to be a fight, pre-roll initiatives for the baddies and have them on index cards (along with the players, even if you let them roll init) so you can easily keep track of whose turn it is.

I would also try to pre-draw maps if there's a way to keep them from seeing it ahead of time. Sometimes I use the Christmas wrapping paper with the convenient one-inch grid on the back.

[hyenaofleisure]

Okay, all good advice I'm trying to implement, the only problem I have with the looting is that the lawful good characters are the one's looting belongings of living non-evil character(the mine director commissioning them to clear out the mines of monsters) and I don't want them to think they can just get away with everything, as then it'll just devolve into looting and fire, which will end with some nasty executions in the long run and a very disappointing game.

My only other problem now would be how best to adjust combat to the larger group. I initially planned a -extremely- small number of low leveled monsters to introduce combat, and one obscenely high leveled one to introduce the fact that every now n then, you need to run or be OBSCENELY clever in order to live, as well as working as a plot device for the main arc. I'll be re-drawing the maps and adjusting size from tiny mineshafts to very large caverns, however, I'm not sure how best to adjust combat(initial plan was 1 rat minion, reskinned as a animate disembodied hand, 3 humans of varying combat type and level(all low) and 1 mind flayer solo fight/flee/resourcefulness)

[Mystic Lemur]

Be careful making a monster you expect them to flee from. Some players, new ones especially, don't know when a monster is too tough until its too late. A large party is harder to plan for because they have more actions per round. You can't just make the bad guys tougher because you increase the risk of killing individual characters. You could increase the number of monsters, but again you increase the risk to individual party members (especially if they get stuck out by themselves). Of the two, it's better to increase numbers before toughness, In My Experience.

As for the stealing, actions have consequences. Let the characters do what they want, but don't be afraid to have the mine director ask for his stuff back. If they say no, or worse yet kill him, don't be afraid to have a reputation as thieves (or murderers) spread. Hard to find work if no one trusts you enough to hire you.

[WoLT]

If lawful good characters are stealing you have to ask "is this metagaming" or is there a real reason for your character to steal when they are Lawful Good?" Potentially yes, there is, but make the player explain it to you and be convincing.

If they can't and they persist anyway warn them that a pattern of behavior of such actions may shift their alignment and all the advantages and penalties that go with that.

Remember, you have to think about the environment the character is from.

If a character is a pirate that is extremely loyal and upholds the pirate's code to the letter, they would actually be sort of out of character if they were lawful good and didn't steal with a good reason... but if they are a Paladin, yeah, not so much.

The alignment has to persist with the origin of the character.

If your players haven't worked out backgrounds I highly suggest you have them do so as an exercise and reward them for it. If they aren't sure how to go about that, sent them links to the player's guide linked in my signature which explains the process in layman's terms.

Having invested more work into their characters the new players will feel more comfortable being in character and be able to play their characters better.

Hope that helps.

[hyenaofleisure]

Hmm, I'll have to increase monster numbers then, which in turn increases the size I'll need to pull this off, which means these very tight mine shafts are going to have to open up to unrealistic proportions.. I'll find a way to fix it.. but I did just get an idea that may fix -both- my problems. Thank you. <3

*edit for WoLT* I tried encouraging backgrounds at the start of the game, and it ended up being more then a tad sloppy honestly, unfortunately the vast majority of the group is not just highschool kids, but freshmen/sophmore, and hence a tad well 'irresponsible' to say the least. For a brief rundown of the situation; the game is starting as a "coming of age" thing, ages 16 to the very late blooming 20. However, instead of being allowed to simply go adventuring, mysterious disappearances have been happening with miners in their town, and the mine director has commissioned the young lot to take care of it. The mines themselves have one "entrance" area which is very large, mostly for workers to hear speeches, or clock in/out or whatever, or for evacuation and the like. The room left of it is the mine directors office, which was broken into by the dragon born fighter(he's a dunce, and just obeys orders) a "awakened" child cleric(raven queen, no idea what her issue is, though her player is leaning closer and closer to evil it seems..) and a lawful good human warlord, who, by his own background, is the would-be captain of the town guard, if not for the fact that I DM'ed up and said no, for the sake of plot, so he's instead, just a guard, and possibly leaving town soon... very metagame at this point, but as I've said, I'm inexperienced, and trying to deal with this whole thing at the start was trial by fire.

So now, I'm trying to clean this whole mess up.

[WoLT]

Well, again, the GM Guide is there and we are here for you if you have more questions that it can't answer.

It sounds like the best option you have is to introduce another player that is experienced to help them "learn to RP". By having a role model that is on their side they'll see how easy it is and how much fun it is.

More over, a bit obvious but, reward good behavior, punish bad behavior, including IC.

Lets discuss this "stealing" thing... where are they going to sell the stuff?

Probably the local market right... only the guy they try to sell it to, the items were actually a gift from him to his brother... now it comes out that they have illicit goods... well, asks the shopkeep... how did you get these? Without saying it's his brother's stuff.

Then watch as they hang themselves.

It's a small world... can't just going around stealing everyone's stuff and not expect it to catch up to you eventually

[hyenaofleisure]

Well, the only person I know with any solid RP experience other than myself would be the club supervisor, which is my history teacher, and an D&D original vet(those books scare me. >_> ) and well, like I said, freshmen and sophomores, the last thing they want is to play with a teacher, and I get the feeling it'd be a large adjustment for him as well.

However, I -am- going to do my best to reinforce the no stupidity thing above all else, and limit metagaming. That diamond ring is going to serve me one way or another... but I will at least give them a chance not to hang themselves, if their smart enough. Just like I won't directly put them against totally hopeless odds with no chance of escape(the mindflayer is staying, and being put to proper use to reinforce the "cleverness rewarded, foolishness punished" thing) but yeah, I'll jut have to rework some stuff, and see how to handle this.

Since the party fell down a elevator lift, I'm still trying to think of a way to get the warlock and paladin in there without breaking their legs with a death drop(initiative and endurance rolls and DM mercy spared the lives of those who did fall when the pully was broken) but I'm going to try to guide them towards a "one way out" route that directly crosses the mind flayer, and gives them a good chance at escaping the mines, as well as possibly learning more about the ring if their smart.

My biggest question now would be; How can I water down the underdark enough for level 1 character's to not die agonizingly, and yet still keep it nice n scary, so when they are higher levels and possibly curious, the underdark would still be a semi big deal?

[WoLT]

use spiders and ambiance, such as huge webs, moss, underwater rushing water, just make it the tip of the underdark, they shouldn't be traversing down deep where the civs of drow are... as a matter of fact the mindflayer should have a specific reason to be this close to the surface to give him an excuse to be there.

Around this area is just small tiny animals that can inhabit topside if need be, the real underdark they won't touch.

Also I mentioned before, perhaps you draw a second way in, or the next character has a mine worker help him get down the hole but doesn't follow. The mine worker leaves the rope and the vicinity but the rope mysteriously falls off after the characters walk away... could be wandering animal or something that knocked it loose, so they can't get back out that way.

[hyenaofleisure]

Hmm, true. The only reason their in the underdark's soft, fluffy peaks is because of the whole 'no way out' thing, and they'll only be heading to a different cave which will come out of the same mountain they entered, So yeah, spiders.. maybe some escaped kobold slaves at worst? The torch light and whatnot would probably frighten away semi-sentient monsters that aren't fully aware, such as hook horrors and the like, bright light in a otherwise lightless world, and they'd be too high up to face any -real- threats. Along with that, I can add small hooks here n there to say "Don't do it NOW, but maybe later..." hmm, there's a lot I can put to work here...

Also, the mine worker thing would work perfectly! (the fact is, the lift was the only way in or out of the mines.. stupid DM move, but yeah..) so, that way if they do fight the scary mind flayer, and use clever tricks to win, they will get juicy xp and an insta-level(level 16 mindflayer vs level 1 party of 7? thats worth somethin...) but I can reward them with a quick escape, and more possible loot, as opposed to waiting for a long period of time, and facing a EXTREMELY pissed off mining director. >_> This should work wonderfully, thank you! (and yes, the mind flayer has extremely good reasons for going this high up, its a main story arc point that'll be focused on for a large majority of the game if things go right)

[Digorig]

I know I am late to the party, but I will through out a few things. Some has already been said...

A new DM is asking for trouble by running more than 3 or 4 for their first game, in my opinion. You may be better served to SPLIT the group into TWO games. I feel you would get better results...EVEN if it were the SAME game for each group. Maybe alternate weeks?

A DM who plans what players will do is ALWAYS disappointed. You game really must be open enough to allow the PC's to choose their actions. The DM's best weapon is Lying! If the PC's try to go somewhere that you are not ready for, be creative:

The Lock DC is just too high for them to open.
The door is barred from inside and cannot be busted down.
The path ahead suddenly burst into flames and is impassable.

You get the idea. Roll some dice and they will never know that you did not plan the whole thing.

Alignment: I agree with WoLT completely. If players don't play theirs, bad stuff happens. Paladins DO NOT STEAL unless it is a give to the poor/Robin hood thing. Remember that Deities can do anything!

A Paladin steals an item and it burns his hand or disintegrates or disappears..Palor is Pissed Off!

Young players are immature most of the time. Not much getting around that part. Best of luck!

DiG

[Fil kearney]

everyone else has already covered most of the points, but I'll add in:
-- alignment restrictions are a train wreck. the player likely took specific alignments to either qualify for a class or to justify hurting things. I wouldn't even bat an eyelash at it... who cares? you will only create discord in an already uncontrollable group. busting chops over alignment isn't going to improve the game.
-- while low level dungeons have neat, clean paths for players to walk down towards whatever you have planned... the size of the group is almost guaranteed to create anarchists bent on pushing back against the obvious road... but these paths and pre-chosen end points make new DM's feel a bit more secure. I'd recommend de-emphasizing the "what next" as part of your agenda, and start focusing on the residents of the dungeon and how they are going to respond an invading mob of PC's. keep track of food, water, light source and even air as possible issues to deal with while stuck down there, and let them ramble about. you'll have an easier time if you start thinking in two tracks:
1. what does the party know about where they are, and what can they observe?
2. what can the residents of the dungeon observe, and how are they going to respond to the players' presence?
This is "advanced" thinking for a game, but the faster you do it, the less you will care about what the party is doing, and the less pressure you will feel to have an agenda.
If they sit around too long... there goes the lights, they are hungry, thirsty, and someone is gonna have to take off their armor and squat in a corner. Quite frankly, I'd bite that guy in the ass with a rat or spider.
hilarity ensues.

okay.. maybe my advice is worthless after all.

[kenneth]

Kill someone. Don't pick them specifically, let circumstances determine that. Put up a powerful monster, or even a weak one with a bucket of academical fire and let it kill someone. It may sound like a jerk move, but it will do a few things:

1. Establishes for new player that they can and will die. There is no better way to teach someone to be more careful than to let them get hurt. Losing HP doesn't phase a player: losing a character does.
2. Establishes that you will kill them. If players believe they can get away with anything, it's your fault. Establish early that you are not to be messed with. Players should/must respect their DM. If they already do, bully, no deaths necessarily, but yours, apparently, do not.
3. Gets it out of the way. Your first PC death may be traumatic for you. There are all kinds of worry and doubt that can come up after killing a character. You may worry your players will hate you or think you're a monster... Bollox! Do it on purpose and do not feel bad about it. Then make the player feel it was This part is essential to pulling a jerk move, like killing someone, but not being perceived as a jerk by your players. This is about respect, remember?his fault. This all sounds ugly, I know, but new players have to learn how to become good players. Part of that training comes from dying and trying not to have to go through the experience again.
4. Gets it out of the way ~ Part 2. The longer you wait to do it, the more hurt they'll be when it happens. Players tend to invest emotionally in their characters. The sooner you get it out of the way, the less attached they'll be. There are, of course, exceptionally stupid player that never learn.
5. The dead player may quit. Again, it sounds harsh, but you do have too many players. Eventually he'll play again or he won't. Either way, there are always more players. It's DMs that are hard to come by.

Some other tips:

1. Don't be afraid to fail. This is your first-ever game. It will end, even if you are the best DM ever.
2. Don't be afraid to have players mad at you. Eventually someone will get angry with you or your decisions. You have power over them, after all and even though it's just a game, they may resent it. Don't take it personally.
3. Don't be afraid to be wrong. You will make mistakes. If your players respect you, they'll let it go and move on.
4. Don't try to control your paladin's sticky fingers, make them part of the story. Always put the story first. Tell a good tale and they'll always come back. Everything else: combat mechanics, rules and alignment adherence is just minutia.