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#2101
10-06-2010, 01:00 AM
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And Apparently you saw that as a pivotal moment also... Quote:
But I guess all of that adds up to a spicy flavor, and that probably doesn't sit very well with your peaches and cream. Besides, you've got a pretty good setup here. You've got a not really there co-player, yeah, I've been watching for the last six months, and you've got an awesome DM who does everything to satisfy you, even if it means running three or four NPCs to make up for the lack of actual players at the table. But that's not all he has to do, no. He has to run the bad guys and continue developing the plot, which is difficult to do for a solo game; I know, I've done it. Yeah, I can see why you wouldn't want things to change. But what about your DM? Don't you think it gets tiresome to run NPCs instead of having other players? Have you ever tried to run four characters at the same time? I have. It's damn challenging, and that was just a short game. But think back to the comments about Voodoo that BSR made... Let's see if I can find it... Quote:
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So you may not care about those little green dots, but the rest of the site does. They use it as an abstract means of giving their approval of someone by adding points to their account for quality posts and role play. So collectively, I've had close to six thousand of such points. But that probably doesn't mean anything. I think you may actually be right though. I may not be a likable individual. Hell, I know I don't like myself, but I have a chronic mental illness called Bipolar type 1 with psychotic features, so who am I to judge. I think about offing myself every day so I get the feeling that my perspective on how wonderful I am is a little distorted. Or, it could just be something with you. Something personal? You don't like sharing the attention? Don't like a little extra drama, or someone who adds a few cherries to your peaches and cream... I can see that, I guess. Maybe it is just that you simply don't like me for various reasons. I feel I should be a little compassionate now, but you just ejected me from YOUR game, so forgive me for seeming dispassionate about your disposition. I tried to wait until BSR arrived with his verdict, but I have been stupid enough to let this trouble me all day today, so, in an effort to afford myself a night of sleep, I have decided to post the above. Somehow, somewhere, there are people who like me. I have tried to give acutely relevant examples and evidence of such, but I fear it will not make any difference. You may have been in this game since 06, but that shouldn't make you the god-king of Hearth. I have been waiting patiently to get back into this game for the past six months, reading the slow posts and the developing plot and whatnot all the while. A month and a half ago when I was offered a spot in the game, I was asked to write about my two week absence, including my escape and my journey to find the group. I wrote somewhere around fifteen pages of dramatic prose in which I staged an elaborate escape from the inquisition and invented the new faction of the resistance and inserted it into the world. Forgive me for being a little excited about sharing all of that with you, perhaps it was too much too fast. Whatever. What would things be like if we restarted at the campsite? What would things be like if Gragham was more forgiving? What would things be like if Voodoo weren't so volatile? All possibilities. But for now they are just questions that may or may not be addressed. So it goes. EDIT: One more question: What would you do, Vintar or BSR or Voltaire, if a well armed man with demon orange eyes lunged out at you as he drilled you about being connected to some demon or another. Would you wet your pants and cry? Would you laugh it off and say, "Oh, you silly demon eyed traveling companion, go back to your bedroll"? Or do you think you would get that flutter in your chest as your heart began racing faster to spread the newly acquired adrenaline rush throughout your body that would ultimately give you that fight or flight response and compel you to fend off the evil creature or run away from it? I chose the latter because I believe that characters should be real on at least some levels. As such, walking around with arms and armor equipped and ready for all hell to break loose at the drop of a hat makes that fight or flight response a little more dramatic. Pulling a weapon doesn't always mean using it. It's just as valid to use a weapon to get a point across without violence as it is to punch someone in the face and break their nose. And for the record, in regards to your last post Vintar, I said I MAY do those things, not I WILL do them. It was specifically designed to give you the opportunity to tell me what you would allow and what you would not tolerate under any circumstances. This is just one more instance that, in my opinion, illustrates how closed minded and unreasonable you are. But what do I know, I'm just some uppity youngster looking to cause trouble in your nice quiet little game. Definitely not trying to help out or anything, so that must make me a detriment to the cause. Silly prophet, go get killed by a goblin, you retard. Last edited by Gath; 10-06-2010 at 01:50 AM. 
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#2102
10-06-2010, 06:32 AM
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Okay, first thing's first: you are Bipolar type 1, and I am a C4-C6 quadriplegic. Please don't try to use any illnesses or disabilities as trumps in a discussion... I really, really get annoyed when people try to exploit that during a confrontation. It might be good to take into account that others most likely put as least as much hours into their posts as you do. And everybody, *everybody* has their own problems in Real Life.
__________________As for XP: you are in three games (at least it seems like that, when checking your profile), I'm just in this one: it's a conscious decision to avoid spreading myself too thin. If you seriously want to go into some pissing contest about RPXP, how about checking the long list under Gragham's name in the thread with the experience logs. And for the record: yes, the little green dots are silly, especially if you try to use them to legitimize yourself... it feels like you're trying to compensate for something. As for BSR and his efforts in this game: I reckon he knows how much I appreciate him for all his hard work. I'll leave any further opinions on the matter up to him. Same goes for Voltaire, whose company I also really appreciate. As for me acting like some king-of-the-hill dictator, that accusation really hurt me. Although Gragham's background as emissary/guildmaster guy kinda makes him the official leader of sorts (when it comes to dealing with officials, anyway), I've gone through great lengths throughout the game to do avoid bossing people around, but rather cultivating equal relationships and following the leads of other players as much as possible. And I honestly think I did a damn good job at it as well... but what do I know. I will admit though that as a person I have a strong personality, and this may cause clashes with other strong personalities. *** And now for the content, which is eventually what matters, no? Basic group dynamics: when you're new to a group, exercise caution. If you try to break your way in with a sledgehammer, the group will reject you. You might have been playing again for a week now, but Voodoo has only been back for hours. The escape didn't offer any time to get back in touch, so this moment, when resting, was the ideal moment to swap stories and reconnect. And keep in mind: you are the outsider here. After a few days in-game, you could have expected to take more liberties, but behaving this forceful and hostile right off the bat? Rejection. Mind you: I'm not saying that Voodoo should act submissive, but it really helps to ask instead of demand, to jump back to keep your personal space intact, rather than going for the weapon. Trust me, I can relate to playing a distinct personality. About 10 years ago, I played an elf whose tribe was extremely secluded, which meant that he had an extreme distrust for everybody in the group. As a relatively new player, I was extremely excited to have this character slowly evolve to become more open, during the course of several months... after all, he was a chaotic neutral elf: being 1100 years old, he couldn't change in a single day, right? Now that was all fine on paper, but it didn't exactly make life easy for my co players, who wanted to have fun. Asking them to be patient for a few months before my own character stops behaving like an arse, is asking a bit much. Translating to Voodoo: fine, he's a chaotic neutral rogue, but does that mean that he had to pull his knife? Again, jumping back or telling the other to back off sends out a strong signal already... then end your post, so the other guy can react, explain himself or whatever. THAT is the way to allow those group dynamics to unfold and to sort stuff out. And again, don't ignore the basic rules of communication: if you see that folks react hurt or alarmed, realize that the ice is wearing thin when it comes to their tolerances... if you add insult to injury, expect disapproval and ultimately rejection. Again: confrontations at times are fine. It adds flavour to the game. If you go overboard on it though, it will backfire and the game stops being fun. Last edited by Vintar; 10-06-2010 at 09:14 AM.
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#2103
10-06-2010, 11:49 AM
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I should probably keep my mouth shut...
__________________I like both of you guys. I think you both add something to the game. However, I understand where Vintar is coming from. It's not really so much about the content it's the intensity with which you came back into our social group and game. It's simply too much too soon and that can be off-putting. Eagerness is sometimes mistaken for pushiness. Ambition is sometimes mistaken for arrogance. The point is that the social fabric is delicate and you have to be careful when becoming part of it that you don't tear it apart at the seams. Last edited by Voltaire; 10-06-2010 at 11:49 AM.
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#2104
10-06-2010, 02:37 PM
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You couldn't be more on point, Voltaire. Too much too soon.
__________________I concede to having come across as an overbearing arrogant ass upon my reintroduction into this game. I apologize for that and I am asking for a second chance. Vintar, I was not trying to throw my disorder around to trump anybody's anything. Rather, my entire dialogue was based around the issue of who does or doesn't like me. It just so happens that I don't like myself and that I have a disorder that perpetuates that reality, so I brought it up to make my personal sentiment a bit more real. I'm sorry if that triggered something more for you than what was already on topic. This whole sh-t has gotten out of hand. Maybe it is the better choice for me to leave. I'll hang out to see what BSR has to say and figure things out from there. Until then, I'll leave you two alone. Thanks for the perspective, Voltaire.
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#2105
10-06-2010, 03:56 PM
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Okay then, well that puts things in perspective.
__________________For now I don't have the time for a longer response, but I'm not against rewinding time for a bit. With what we've learned in our minds, we should be able to make things work. Voltaire has the unique ability to get a point across more accurately, and with fewer words. And nicer.
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#2107
10-07-2010, 01:27 PM
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I truly appreciate the fresh perspective, Voltaire. You opened my eyes to a side of the situation that I wasn't aware of whilst I was ramming heads with Vintar over something that I had been guilty of without being able to see it.
__________________Vintar, I apologize again for the drama, the stress and for what ultimately turned into some pretty heated exchanges that certainly have no business being in this game. I feel awful, but I am also humbled and honored by your offer to rewind a bit and give this all a second chance. Thank you. Assuming BSR allows this, I would like to get a few things in order ooc so I can have some perspective in the game and have an idea on how to behave. I would like to extract some of those boundary queries and repropose them ooc. Specifically, what things will Gragham not tolerate and under what conditions? Apropos, what things won't Vintar tolerate and under what circumstances? I think you get my drift. I'm asking for some guidelines to gaming with Gragham and Vintar, if you don't mind. This will hopefully help me play into your character. Even if that means the occasional breach in etiquette.  . But seriously, if I know what not to do then it makes it much easier to do what I am allowed to do to the best of my abilities. It also opens up some room for minor rubs and timely goading. Unless that would just be more of a killjoy rather than some sporting humor. Please try to keep in mind that my character is and has always been a CN rogue-pirate. Part of the reason I am asking for the boundaries is so that I can try to maintain some of his big personality. Of course, I've only had him in the game for a brief time so if that is one of the many triggers for you then we can discuss some manner of revision. I'd rather that option be saved for last though if possible. Again, thanks to both of you. I hope this works out and I look forward to trying to make things right... For everyone. p.s. - the signature is a quote from the movie Red Dragon, of the Hannibal Lector series. perhaps one of the better if not the best of the series. i find it to be an amusing and compelling quote from an amazing writer, i think his name is Thomas Harris. the way he gets into the characters and the minds of everyone, turning the villains into heroes and making romance novels out of murder mysteries... truly remarkable. the books are much better than the movies and much different as well. all of them are romantic, to the very last scene, yet the romances are surrounded by horrific violence, but even that, in some twisted way, turns out to be poetic and on some levels justifiable. after all, it is only a novel... the fact that the character had William Blake's dragon tattooed all over his body made the moment of the quote especially imprinting as i am an artist with a masters degree in the useless stuff. whatever, didn't mean to add fuel to the fire. not sure why i didn't use caps in this post script either. end. Last edited by Gath; 10-07-2010 at 02:51 PM.
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#2109
10-08-2010, 08:35 AM
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Okay, a guide of sorts, let's see... well there are two suggestions I can offer, from the top of my head: read others' posts carefully (you can often read a lot between the lines), realize what they have to say, and respond to that. Second part: keep in mind that others will respond to your post as well, so ask yourself what do you want to communicate. Will the others interpret it in that way, or is there room for miscommunication?
__________________Now there are lots of ways to misread another's post, and it's quite common, even... the whole written word without expressions and body language thing. I'm probably saying nothing new here, but my point is that there are “safe” responses and more extreme/lively responses. Now the trick is to be able to fully express your character and give him that flavor, without going overboard... always playing it extremely safe will prolly make him rather dull. Still, you can use that balance when you sense some tension: if you aren't aiming for that tension, it might be wise to shift the gear back to neutral and create some breathing space (or simply ask if there's a problem/issue that you're missing in the OOC thread). Also, there are always multiple ways to get your point across: pulling out your axe and plunking it into a table to REALLY make a grand, intimidating gesture, or folding your arms across your chest and raising your voice a bit. Pulling out the weapon makes a clear point, but be prepared to see the other guy pulling out his weapons back at you, as you just introduced the possibility of bloodshed into the equation. That's why it's usually not the best way to use it in a clash with a partymember: after all, they often need to blindly trust you with their lives... Then of course there's the possibility of reading too much into things: for instance, I misread that quote as part of the vibe that I was getting from Voodoo... he just seemed to require so much recognition, respect or even “awe”, so to speak... and while expecting some affirmation is fair, it felt quite overbearing... Too much too soon, as you said. Therefore I did mistake that enthusiasm for pushiness/arrogance. After all, the group had just gone through an extremely intensive, claustrophobic experience from which they were very relieved to escape alive together... So it was a very difficult moment there to reintroduce you to the group. And also a logical moment, yes: helping the exhausted group to escape was a good catalyst to get Voodoo on the fast track back into the group. This also was (and is) a delicate moment as well: we need to become reacquainted again. In delicate moments like that, one needs to be very careful with those interpretations, reactions and possible misconceptions. I'm glad to hear that you were very excited to jump back in, but that probably was the reason why you were so... intense. Don't worry, we got lots of time to catch up before we get to Kray/Angelwood/wherever we decide to go. In game, that gives us those days to get used to each other again. *** As for Gragham: he is, in some ways, an extension of my own personality. He is very proud, has very strong convictions and doesn't hold back when speaking his mind. If you patronize him, address him with disrespect or venom, he will react, and probably quite strongly. His cleric side has made him more lenient and understanding however, so he won't go for the jugular after an insult or whatever... If you question profound things like his convictions, his family/clan or his loyalty, it will trigger a very ugly reaction. It may take a short while to gain his trust (as in: a few in-game days and a few encounters... don't worry, it won't take months... ), but once you got it, he's fiercely loyal to his friends. That was why he chose Carlyle's side in a heartbeat during that confrontation: after all, although we've been posting for a week now, Voodoo had only been back for a few hours. It might be interesting to observe how Gragham will gradually warm up to Voodoo after a few in-game days. Again, this won't take several weeks of posting, but please give the group a chance to become reacquainted. When in a new group, I personally try making suggestions rather than demands, and I sit back a bit and observe who takes charge, who is fine with it all etc... While taking those group dynamics into account and adapting to what is needed, I won't suppress my own identity, but rather try to gradually ease myself into the group, like easing into a bathtub. That's the intention, anyway. In a world where Lawful characters are actually impossible, there you go: Gragham is Lawful Good. It is why he tried to get sanctions from Drake: not because it would be convenient, but because it would give the group the chance to do their thing out in the open. Which of course was why it got shot down... Gragham's rather idealistic views may have worked in his home town, but in the No'Mos society it's out of touch with reality. One can see a preference for laws and structure throughout the campaign; it is why he is rather iffy when it comes to the Resistance. The Resistance, like Ha'Mos, is... unpredictable, chaotic... he'd rather try to help change the system, rather than tear it down completely. The confrontation with Drake prolly forced him to turn towards the Resistance however, but we'll see how that pans out. Translating it back to Voodoo, you can see why he might be a bit reserved... when Voodoo pulled out that dagger for instance, Gragham viewed it as an extreme example of chaotic unpredictability... and unpredictable companions endanger the mission. Now this will be a very interesting clash in personalities: it will be challenging for Voodoo and Gragham to bridge that gap, but it should be possible... you might want to consider saving the more 'extreme' reactions for foes however, instead of partymembers. The Stuffa was another example of Gragham's strong, lawful convictions. Only part of it has to do with illegality however: mostly he sees it as a parlor trick for the weak-minded. That is why the proud dwarf is so ashamed of his brother and will refer to him as “somebody close to him”... it's a disgrace for the family name. It's also why Gragham responded so positively when hearing that Voodoo kicked the habit: it testifies of a “strong mind” in his book, and Voodoo really raked in a lot of respect with that one. That little sequence got lost a bit though, as it was overshadowed by the confrontation bit. Anyway, I've rambled on long enough... so let's see. Gragham doesn't need to be “The Leader”, but he doesn't like to be ignored either. He's a proud dwarf, so if he admits to a mistake, recognize that for what it is, and try not to add insult to injury. In case of a confrontation with him and you end up 'winning', don't rub his face in it. Lying, stealing etc. isn't a problem, as long as you don't lie to him. He gives his loyalty and respect, but he expects it in return. In case Voodoo wants to achieve a goal with 'questionable' methods, it might be good to say: “trust me... you don't want to know.” I hope this helps a bit... Just like Gragham, I prefer to speak my mind and don't let stuff go unsaid, so it can fester... I don't like secrets, what you see is what you get. It's why I immediately pulled the emergency break here, and it's why I'm not a fan of secret texts in OOC (to name an example)... it makes me nervous. Last edited by Vintar; 10-08-2010 at 08:47 AM.
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#2110
10-08-2010, 10:15 PM
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Life has a funny way about it sometimes. To be quite honest, this situation, from my perspective, is ripe with complicated social dynamics, both external and internal, that really boil down to some pretty basic aspects of the human condition. Your last post contains a pretty clear perspective on posting conventions on a handful of levels and paints a rather nice portrait of you and your character.*
__________________Interestingly, I strive to manufacture mechanically sound characters who tend to be at least moderately dynamic when it comes to personality overall world view. It doesn't always work, and sometimes, like this recent conflict, it ends up blowing up in my face.* When it comes to drawing parallels between player and character, I rarely if ever model a character after myself in a literal sense. Most of the time it is some personal fantasy that is constructed by stripping away my real life flaws in favor of rebuilding myself and my own self image to ultimately end up with someone I wish I could be. I'm certain that I am not alone on that one, but I figured it would be good to lay that one out there seeing as how you've modeled Gragham after yourself. Voodoo is very much so an extension of me but mostly in the sense that I enjoy writing about him through the looking glass so to speak. He says things I would never have the courage to say in a manner that I could never emulate and with a confidence I have never known. And boy do I love to write about those daring acts and heroic adventures! Like I said, I know I'm not alone.* Perhaps there is an awkwardness to my portrayal of him because I only know him in a fantastical reality and as such my grip on social protocal is likely incomplete and perhaps even poorly constructed. I shall have to consider this aspect and try to work out some problematic issues. Perhaps there also resides some conflicting elements since I am so distinctly different from my fantasy character. In other words, if Carlyle jumped out at me I may or may not vocalize as I ran the f-ck away. Voodoo is the badass that I wish I could be, so he doesn't take any sh-t, especially from some creepy bastard with demon eyes. Nope, he sees a threat and reacts intensely, not just to defend himself but to show whomever may be watching that he's not some sissy that can be pushed around. That's why he pulled his chain on Gragham, because he turned around red faced and yelling (which would embarass most people) and then he threatened to throw Voodoo out on his ear. That may read as some strong willed colloquial expression for angry dwarves, but to some it can be legitemately construed as a hostile threat from an angry armed and armored dwarf. Not that I want to get back into that discussion again, I don't, promise. I'm just trying to illustrate how I make decisions for my character. Compare and contrast what I would do if I were me vs what I would do if I were him. More often than not the two are leagues apart. I will work to refine the impulsivity of my decision making process and try to formulate a more cohesive code of conduct.* Another element I shall try and work on is my post length. I have been primarily dming for the past six months so I have grown accustomed to massive summary posts as well as backgrounds for game applications. The biggest one so far was a twenty three page back story for an Exalted character. Pretty intense. So yeah, I've developed a bit of a personal standard for approximated minimum post length and, as you may have mentioned, that can have an excluding effect on the other players by saying and doing too much in one post without offering an opportunity for appropriate interaction.* Right, so how far back do we go and do we talk about future plans here or in game? Lots to work on...
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#2111
10-09-2010, 01:04 PM
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Ok, I believe that I am finally prepared to post on this subject now, even though it seems you two have come to some resolution anyhow. Still the whole thing highlighted, some problems. Not with you all but with me.
So where have I been all these days since this has transpired? Thinking. At first I was thinking how do I resolve this issue and how we either reconcile or split the group. Then I also started thinking about how all this went so terribly wrong. I was sincere in my post that I thought it was all my fault. And the more that I thought about it the more I knew I was right. It was my decision to introduce another player into the game, and there were certainly signs there that this might come to a head and I just didn't do anything to address them. I just let it go. It wasn't because I wanted to sabotage the game, obviously, but it was just a lack of time and effort. Looking back on it, I realized just my general attitude and effort in the game has been lackluster in comparison to previous years. And I think that was one of the main reason I felt I needed to bring another character in, to make my life easier. My posts are shorter, the encounters less involved and I have become complacent in relying on plot hooks I wrote five years ago rather then trying to create things new and fresh. I no longer play in any other games, don't visit EN World or the Wizards websites any more to pick up ideas, don't flip through the core rulebooks any longer. I didn't even play through half of Dragon Age Origins before I totally dropped it nine months ago. What the heck is wrong with me? I think I am just basically burn out, something I never thought would happen. So why am I writing all this? Right now I am thinking that I can't continue this game. I say can't because I would like to continue it. I would like to see it to the end. But at the same time I know I don't have the drive, time or imagination to really do it the right way. I feel awful for doing this now, as all of you, including Gath, have put in plenty of time and effort into this game. I feel like I am letting you all down, but at the same time, I don't want to waste any more of your time with a game that I can't put 100% into anymore. So that is what I am thinking. That is why I have avoided the discussions this past week. I wanted to make sure I wasn't coming up with some totally rash decision and really thought it through. This is what I believe to be the right decision and I am sorry. Hopefully you all will understand.
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#2112
10-09-2010, 02:09 PM
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I appreciate the good times we've had in the game. I don't want the game to be over but I understand and respect your decision. It must be difficult and time consuming to manage a game such as this. I know that I would not do it.
__________________I hope that after you've had some time away you decide to come back to the game. If you do, I'll be waiting. This was really my first true foray into PBP RPing. I learned a lot from you, Vintar, everyone. Thanks!
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#2113
10-09-2010, 02:48 PM
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This just feels tragic now, like I somehow dropped a nuclear bomb on a five year old game. I believe your sincerity, BraveSirRobin, but that doesn't make your decision any easier to swallow. Perhaps it is just the timing of everything or just the sequence of events that led up to this. I am sorry for the contributions I have surely made to the demise of this game.
__________________If it's worth anything, I would be more than happy to offer myself up for DMing a different game for the three of you to keep you in the forums and in the game so to speak. Perhaps you just need a shift from DM to player for a little while. I can provide that and I would be honored to have the three of you in a game of mine. Think about it. The offer stands. BSR, it's been brief, but it's been a pleasure.
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#2114
10-09-2010, 03:36 PM
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As for your offer, I think I am going to take a complete break for now. Plus I am entering my busy season at work so it makes the most sense to just make it clean for now. Sorry guys. It would be good to see if you guys continued on someway without me though.
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#2115
10-11-2010, 02:44 PM
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In my own game at the time, I had a character die in combat. The player took a couple weeks off, because he needed to "mourn" his character; then he rolled a new character, came back into the game, and expected everyone to welcome his character with open arms. The group was, by that point, comprised of people deeply suspicious of any outsiders and paranoid. . . quite rightfully so, since they were all using unlawful magic by that point in time, or had "demonic" ancestry, etc. It wouldn't have been realistic to have them all unbend instantly, and he didn't help his own case much. I'm *still* not sure what I could have done better as a DM to help them integrate, but I expect there would have been something. What I can say is this: the OOC can, and occasionally even should trump the IC, especially when it comes down to being able to continue playing a game you enjoy. I have left gaming groups before due to personality conflicts or because of time constraints or because I'd simply stopped enjoying the game. Those are valid reasons. I've written myself into enough character corners as well to know that I probably should have found a different way out. . . . or rerolled. :-/ Chaotic neutral (chaotic crazy, as I like to call it), actually is one of the most flexible of the alignments, and you can probably justify almost any shifts in behavior that would allow people to back down from the ledge. Just because it's likely that he'd pull a knife doesn't mean that it isn't equally likely that he'd kiss someone on the cheek as an insulting gesture, or *insert alternate example here*. Vintar's also right to point to the nature of the play-by-post game. Time is a very different animal in play-by-post. If you have 8 players all posting 4-5 times a day (as I once had), you can develop characters very quickly and shift situations and developing trends with ease. If you have 3 players posting once a week, you cannot possibly develop your character, allow him or her to change gradually, or even naturally. His example of his elf back in the day, and allowing the character to get on people's nerves for 6 months, is apt. (You weren't the worst on that board, though, not by a long shot, if it's any comfort. )All of which is a long way of saying that you can, and indeed, even should, find IC reasons for OOC needs. That is, if you want to keep playing. If you're not enjoying yourself, then by all means, find an IC reason to bow out for that OOC reason. Errr. . . well. . . you get what I mean.  Good luck resetting the clock, if that's the decision BSR goes with . . . after his break, of course. Last edited by Ravenwind; 10-11-2010 at 02:47 PM.
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