Dragons

[Annolennar]

I think it bears some forethought to discuss what place dragons will have in C:L. It seems like in most campaign settings dragons are either one of two things:

1) Generic fantasy monster #37 (Now with now with 65% better breath weapons and awesome loot!!!)

or

2) Rare, nearly godlike beings of ancient times, who wield vast power and know many secrets.

Now it seems to me that if we go with the first approach, then we should toss alignment restrictions out the door and use dragons based on each of the elements (and assign the stats of one of the traditional MM colors to each element

If we go with the second, we can still throw alignment out the window and use each color sparingly. Better yet, we can encourage DMs to handmake dragon NPCs, even make some ourselves.

PS If you care about 4th edition, perhaps even give thought to that (as well as dragonborn and such) and how it would relate, if at all (considering the limited info we have).

[Mottmon]

I would think that Dragons should be like PC's a bit (read as: alot), Each with unique character traits and random abilities/alignments/etc. but also they should be more powerful than the average human. Not 'god-like' but defiently interesting and independent, with cross-breeds (Silver/Gold? Black/Blue? White/Red (PINK!)) possible, and a plethora of different colors, the colors though, not affecting anything other than what their color is (obviously)

[jj_wolven]

I wouldn't say elementum based - this new setting needs to be easy for players and DMs to jump into. Perhaps keep mechanics the same for dragons, but add flavor text

Near each elementum pole certain types of dragons become more numerous
Aqua: Black/Brass
Aura: White/Silver
Ignis: Red/Gold
Terra: Blue/Copper

Since we are making the elementum "races" as templates the dragons could simply apply those templates as well.

Additionally we can make elementum dragons - with special abilities with their element and using elementum. Close to a elemental/dragon cross.

-me

[Saito no Cero]

I disagree with keeping them the same. Dragons are a bit cliche BUT are a huge deal in most players' eyes. Keeping it simple is paramount if we even consider tweaking them. Personally, I think dragons should be a phenomenon. They should be something that is rare, short lived and potentialy world effecting.

For example, suppose we do choose elementum based dragons. Have it so that when a particularly "strong" creature nears a pole, perhaps the element of the pole infuses the living creature with it's essence. The power overwhelms the creature, driving it mad with knowledge and power. Eventually the power will consume the creature, but until then the object emits energy that resembles a classic dragon. To make it even more interesting, have the knowledge of the host stolen by the energy, and that knowledge is shared with the next unfortunate. Sort of like a symbiotic energy.

If someone were to tame the "dragon" be that referring to the energy or the creature it is consuming, they could become infinitely more powerful, rivaling the power of lesser deities. Total number of dragons, unknown. What they base their selection on, who knows.

I want to add a bit of spice to the setting, and something big like dragons could polish it's uniqueness.

[jj_wolven]

There is a concept idea in there that I like, but overall I disagree.

One of the main points of this setting, and why it went all the way back to the drawing board, was that it is supposed to maintain almost all of the standard accepted known concepts of standards d20. The idea is that someone new to this setting can jump in with minimal knowledge (as minimal as 1- elemental setting, 2-floating islands) and be able to play and recognize things. The original ideas for both races and vitalessense was largely discarded because of this.
I think that changing the dragons that much, especially because they are so iconic, would be a bad idea. Add spice, but don't detract from the player base.

Now, the idea I do like is:

For example, suppose we do choose elementum based dragons. Have it so that when a particularly "strong" creature nears a pole, perhaps the element of the pole infuses the living creature with it's essence. The power overwhelms the creature, driving it mad with knowledge and power. Eventually the power will consume the creature, but until then the object emits energy that resembles a classic dragon. To make it even more interesting, have the knowledge of the host stolen by the energy, and that knowledge is shared with the next unfortunate. Sort of like a symbiotic energy.

If someone were to tame the "dragon" be that referring to the energy or the creature it is consuming, they could become infinitely more powerful, rivaling the power of lesser deities. Total number of dragons, unknown. What they base their selection on, who knows.

conflict with the statement I made above, not at all.

I like the idea of the spontaneous creation of Guardian Dragons - spontaneously spawned creatures to defend the poles (dissipates when foes are away) or a pole-attack that wraps the creature in the elementum to destroy it. We could even make the later a major plot element - occasionally a creature is not destroyed when it is wrapped and gains massive power (and likely madness).

I really think at least some dragons of the standard nature should exist.

-me

[Saito no Cero]

Give and take, I like it. Though if you go with the standard MM version of dragons, how old can they be? I don't have a firm grasp on timeline, so we need to make sure there is plenty of 'time since creation' to have ancient wyrms and all that whatnot.

[jj_wolven]

Timeline for immortals is hard to know. The first sections of history could have been 2 years or 2 million. I figure at least 6000-10,000 for normal races to develop, plenty of time for dragons.

Just had another though - we could keep most thing about dragons the same and just change small relatively ineffectuals that don't change how they are "known"
1. keep mechanics, habitats, habits, tendencies...
2. Make dragons either the children of the Old Ones (solaris/umbra) or 2nd Gen beings (Solaris --> child X --> dragon).
3. Make dragons immortal - they stop aging at Great Wyrm (only 1200 years anyway), though they can die by violence.

Changing those two small things could make them distinctive, but essentially change nothing about them (#2 is some actual theory anyway, #3 they are effectively immortal because of their lifespan in other campaigns).

So:
'true' dragons: rare occurence - as most campaigns or more so
Guardian <eementum> Dragon - unique and temporary. Dissipates as need ends (except plot anomoly above).


-me