[OOC] Pathfinder RPG: Rules Discussion

[Loozer]

This thread will be where we discuss the rules specific to Pathfinder RPG. Ask questions here, make comments, or rant about the unfairness of it all. I think I will post a thread at Paizo linking here so that if game developers want to, they can see what some actual play tester think about the rules.

I will also be posting here asking questions about hings, and proposing changes if I see fit.

First topic: skills.

There's a lot of discussion at Paizo about the skills. many are not happy. I'm not I'm happy with them. They were changed to make things easier for DM's to make characters, but have taken a lot of the customization away from the players in doing so. I'm interested to hear comments and suggestions about this.

Here's a link to a thread started by one of the designers about the new skill system, just to help the discussion.

Skill discussion.

[lymphomaniac]

Honestly: I'm far enough removed from the game that I don't think I'll be able to provide any productive discussion until we actually get the game on the road. From the point of view of "building" my character, I think it's a little easier, albeit a little less customizeable (as you've mentioned). But until I actually get to see the full impact, it's not making a lot of difference for me at the moment.

[M_Sinner]

It's easier to manage the skills, but all of a sudden I can't "dabble in cooking," or some similar thing. *shrugs* I think that the real killer is that people can't start out with a point in every skill-- something that is a very viable option in 3.5e.

[Loozer]

One thing that I see as a problem, is the effect of multiclassing. Take a level of rogue, adn suddenly the whol world is open to you, forever. Then go and choose fighter or wizard for the next 10 levels, and still be able to disable traps, sneak around, leap from tall buildings, bluff your way through situations, and open locks just as well as a rogue of the same level. I'm a little surprised everyone didn't just say: "I'm going to start as a rogue and then multiclass into x" (Although, I wouldn't have really allowed that! )

Seems a little broken and abusable to me. But we'll see if that becomes an issue

[M_Sinner]

Well, it's a good thing that I *chose* to start as a rogue, isn't it then? Honestly, though, I don't plan on changing. I like my character just as he is-- with lots and lots of languages, too.

[Excior]

Originally Posted by Loozer

One thing that I see as a problem, is the effect of multiclassing. Take a level of rogue, adn suddenly the whol world is open to you, forever. Then go and choose fighter or wizard for the next 10 levels, and still be able to disable traps, sneak around, leap from tall buildings, bluff your way through situations, and open locks just as well as a rogue of the same level. I'm a little surprised everyone didn't just say: "I'm going to start as a rogue and then multiclass into x" (Although, I wouldn't have really allowed that! )

Seems a little broken and abusable to me. But we'll see if that becomes an issue

Even though you took another level in another class your still a Rouge, now just cause you have the ability to do the rogue stuff does not mean you will be good at it. Like when the party is all like level 15 and your multi-classed thief is a level 5 thief and a level 10 fighter. His skills wont be up to par as would a level 15 rogue. He might not be able to hide from that level 15 monster or what not.

[Excior]

As far as skills go do I understand it right There is no longer "Ranks" you just roll a d20 and add then add in any ability mods and racial mods?

and on table 5-1 lets use Barbarian for example it says you get 4 skills+ Int Mod does that mean I can choose any 4 skills to be class skills? or Since I cant seem to find the Barbarian Class in the Alpha rules does it mean I can only select 4 skills from the barbarian class skills list?

[Excior]

From Notes #1
Human Racial Traits (pg7) : Add the following ability tothe human racial traits. "Weapon Training: Humans are proficient with any one weapon of their choice, in addition to those granted by class proficiencies. This weapon must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed.

This has no benfit for those classes that are proficient with all weapons. I would think the weapon of choice should get like a +1 to hit in the case of fighters and the ohter meele classes that know how to use all weapons.

[Excior]

And as of now The barbarian is the same as it is in the SRD?

[Excior]

From what I have read this is what all the info I need to make my character human? well this stuff and any answert to my other questions or course.


Human Rqacial Traits
+2 to one ability score: Human characters get a +2 bonus on one ability score of their choice at creation, to represent their varied nature.

Medium: Humans are medium creatures, and have not bonues or penalities due to their size.

Normal Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.

Skilled: Humans are proficient in one additional skil at 1st level. this bonus skil conts as a class skill, regardless of the human's class.



Languages: Humans begin play speaking Common. Humans with high Intelligence scores can shoose any Languages they want.

Favored Class: Humans can choose any one class as their favored class at 1st level. (as long as they progress in this favored class they get +1 hit point per level they advance, no mulitclassing)This choice cannot be changed.

From Notes #1
Human Racial Traits (pg7) : Add the following ability tothe human racial traits. "Weapon Training: Humans are proficient with any one weapon of their choice, in addition to those granted by class proficiencies. This weapon must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed.

[Loozer]

Wow, so many questions.

Let me try and answer:

Even though you took another level in another class your still a Rouge, now just cause you have the ability to do the rogue stuff does not mean you will be good at it. Like when the party is all like level 15 and your multi-classed thief is a level 5 thief and a level 10 fighter. His skills wont be up to par as would a level 15 rogue. He might not be able to hide from that level 15 monster or what not.

Actually based on the new Pathfinder RPG rules, this would be exactly what happens. You choose skills that you're trained in at first level and then add one more trained skill at every even level. Every skill you are trained in (even those you get training in at later levels) you check by rolling d20 and then adding: Character level + 3 + racial and ability modifiers for class skills or 0.5 x(Character Level + 3) + racial and ability modifiers. This means a Rogue 1, Fighter 10, will have his skills taken as a rogue at level 1 working like a 11th level rogue.

I think this will be changed eventually.

As far as skills go do I understand it right There is no longer "Ranks" you just roll a d20 and add then add in any ability mods and racial mods?

and on table 5-1 lets use Barbarian for example it says you get 4 skills+ Int Mod does that mean I can choose any 4 skills to be class skills? or Since I cant seem to find the Barbarian Class in the Alpha rules does it mean I can only select 4 skills from the barbarian class skills list?

More or less correct. You can choose 4 skills to be trained in. They can be class skills or cross-class skills and work as described above. You get to choose a new skill to be trained in every even level.

From Notes #1
Human Racial Traits (pg7) : Add the following ability tothe human racial traits. "Weapon Training: Humans are proficient with any one weapon of their choice, in addition to those granted by class proficiencies. This weapon must be chosen at 1st level and cannot be changed.

This has no benfit for those classes that are proficient with all weapons. I would think the weapon of choice should get like a +1 to hit in the case of fighters and the ohter meele classes that know how to use all weapons.

You can choose an exotic weapon to be proficient in. That's like a free feat! I thin that's pretty good...

And as of now The barbarian is the same as it is in the SRD?

For now. Changes are coming, and I'm sure we'll see them before we get too far in the campaign. It shouldn't be hard to update things when the changes come out. I'll probably allow changes if there are radical changes that makes people unhappy.

Otherwise you seem to have everything correct. Glad the PDFs are working for you!

[Aurex]

What does everyone think about starting with more hit points? I'm a wizard and will have 14 of 'em. I have to say, it'll be nice to not have to worry so much about dying due to clumsiness or ornery house cats. But I think monsters ought to be afforded more hit points, too, or else 1st level characters are suddenly just a lot more powerful. I also think that in most cases it's probably more realistic to think that it would take several hits to cut down an enemy as opposed to just one. A crit, sure, but not a regular hit from a 1st level fighter.

I don't know if all monsters necessarily need the same number of bonus hit points characters get, though. We are heroes, after all.

One thing to remember about the human bonus skill: if you choose a cc skill, it will count as a class skill for you. So it seems smart to pick a cc skill!

[lymphomaniac]

I finally had a chance to review a bit more of the Pathfinder RPG Player's Guide, and I was quite happy to find that I get a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy. However, I was shocked to realize that I might no longer have Track as a Class Bonus Feat (according to the Designer Notes under the Feats section).

I can't wait for the update on the Ranger class, to see what other surprises are in store for me.

[lymphomaniac]

As mentioned in the General Discussion thread, and bringing it up here again (because I think it's a salient point for this thread), I'm a little disappointed that they've removed the +2 Diplomacy racial bonus for half-elves in Alpha 1.2. I'm also a wee bit unhappy (or perhaps confused - maybe both) that they've removed the ability for half-elves to choose one skill at level 1 and consider it as a class skill, and replaced it with a Skill Focus bonus feat. The net effect is almost the same, but what the Alpha 1.2 version gives is a bit weaker than what they originally provided.

On the skills side of things, going back to the rank system is kind of good because the formula for doing skill checks goes back to a simple addition-based system (instead of calculating half-numbers for trained cross-class skills). It's still going to take a bit of getting used to, but I suppose it's a good thing that I'm jumping right into this ruleset from not having played D'n'D for a long time (so the previous skill check systems are no longer ingrained in my head).

That's all for now. I'll probably have more gripes (and maybe even commendations) as the game goes on.

[Loozer]

Actually, with the new rules, giving Skill Focus instead of a free class skill is BETTER. In the new rules, a class skill means that you get a +3 bonus to skill checks using a class skill that you are trained in (ie, have put at least 1 rank into). That's the only difference between a class skill, and a cross-class skill. No more "spend 2 skill points to get one cross class rank" that makes things complicated for DM's building characters (I always just skipped right over calculating skill points for NPCs unless I really needed to). Now, just put your skill points in whatever skill, and if that skill is a class skill, get a +3 bonus. Simple.

So, you see, Skill Focus is BETTER, because instead of needing to put a rank in a chosen skill to the +3 benefit, you just choose a skill to get a +3 bonus to. It can be any skill, a class skill, a cross-class skill, even a skill you never plan on putting ranks into. Hell, you can use it with a class skill that you have put ranks into and double up on the benefit. See, it's better han just granting a class skill because it's more flexible.

And really, you're whining because they took away +2 Diplomacy bonus, and replaced it with +3 bonus to anything? Just put it in Diplomacy. Personally, I think it makes more sense what they did with tPathfinder RPG. It'smakes the Half-elf much more flexible and actually makes it a strong choice, instead of the suck choice it used to be.