[Game Thread] C1-M14: Identification of Main Causes of Unacceptable Conditions

[ProjectMoon]

Proposal ID: C1-M14 Name: Identification of Main Causes of Unacceptable Conditions Affects: Council One The following shall be determined and identified in terms clearly understandable to all Council members: the identities of all political figures with the ability to affect living conditions; all environmental factors that affect living conditions; whether or not said factors can be affected in such a way that living conditions would stabilize and/or improve.

[goplayer7]

Some things that I think should be added
Social Factors- how they are amonst themselfs and others
Economic Factors- how its economy is and how it effects the economy of others
The course of all factors if there is no intervention from us

[Monsoon]

I agree with the first two - however, the point of the quandary we were set was to choose between two courses of action. Inaction was not one of them - I fail to see why we need to know what will happen should we not intervene at all when we are, in fact, going to intervene somehow.

[goplayer7]

I feel that how they would have natually progressed is an important issue. We wish to make a positive affect in the universe, so we need something to have a baseline inorder to know if we think things would become worse or not.

[goplayer7]

Any reply? Lets get the deliberation going.

[Monsoon]

I'm far from against having more information, I just still wonder whether this particular addendum is necessary. We already have a baseline - it's called history.

[goplayer7]

OOC This isn't going to work with just two people, I think we should wait for someone else to post. I'm going to make my reply private for the purpose of continuing the deliberation, but at the same time making it so someone else has to post. I'll unprivate it so you can get back into the deliberation as soon as I can when someone else posts.

You can't call it history because it hasn't happened yet. There are many paths that it could take. Lets say that we cause them to die 60% sooner then we were ment to (so if they would have died in 100 earth years, they die in 40 instead). What if it turned out that 50 years down the road they found a rare metal that would save another civization 10 years later. Because they never found it, we would be destorying two civizations instead of one.

[Krogher]

I believe we have been severely limited in our actions, we can either re-instate a dictatorship, or destroy it and let the pieces lie where they fall. Can we make proposals to change our options some? Why not put in place a different system of government? Why not overtake the empire and rule it as an extension of Council territory? Obviously the Council has some reasonable power, enough to destroy a failing empire or raise it back to shiny newness at least.

Assuming we are only given the two option, then I am inclined to agree with Monsoon on this one. Social and Economic factors have, at the very best, been vaguely defined through a general governmental structure. Both factors are very important to how a society will react to new aide or any sort of invasion by another race of people. However, we are given the option to destroy, or to fix, and we know that they will be destroyed or accept the fixing, regardless of their social and economic status. It seems unimportant. By that same argument, this entire rule seems unimportant. I get the feeling we're going about this wrong, or at least not on the intended path.

I must say I don't really understand the point of this quandary. It seems like it boils down to, "If you do A, you kill hundreds of thousands of people and the living ones are worse off for it, if you do B, you re-instate an empire and everybody's situation improves." What exactly is the quandary here? If perhaps this warlike empire was some sort of threat, then we might have an issue. In fact... *runs off to proposal thread*

[goplayer7]

Here are some comments that I have about what you said.

Originally Posted by Krogher

I believe we have been severely limited in our actions

The way that I see it, the purpose of the rules so far are not to make actions, rather gather information. We need to analize everything before deciding what to do.

Originally Posted by Krogher

However, we are given the option to destroy, or to fix, and we know that they will be destroyed or accept the fixing, regardless of their social and economic status. It seems unimportant.

They will of course accept what ever we do, how ever we need to know as much as we can go we know that what we do is right. My reason for adding my three points (mainly the third one) is so we can have a better idea of how this civilization would affect others so what we don't harm anyone else (we might obviously destroy this race).

Originally Posted by Krogher

What exactly is the quandary here?

Originally Posted by ProjectMoon

...Verum is a dying planet, due to continued war and infighting amongst its inhabitants... [who] are tyrannical and warlike... [They] are currently ruling the last bits of a failing [empire]. This failing empire is causing unrest and extremely poor living conditions for many under Verum's rule. To destroy the last bits of the empire would make [the conditions] worse. To restore the empire would make things better, in a manner of speaking. Your quandary is thus: Do we, the akhirai, end the infighting and restore the races of Verum to power, or set into motion a series of events that will bring about their permanent downfall?

I edited it to take out some of the unnessary bits. One part in partiular the "in a manner of speaking" in troubling to me. I think that means that because they are war like they will want to fight to expand the empire.

[ProjectMoon]

I am enacting UC-3 part 1 here: "The right to interrupt internal or universal procedure to ensure the continuity of this Experiment."

We are above the lesser races. We exist in our own reality separate from them. However, we will not be taking any direct measures here; direct rule in particular. The solution arrived at will be enacted through subtle means as is the usual norm for our race. Akira is correct in that if the empire is permitted to continue existing, their conquests, and the death and destruction they cause cause, will continue.

[Moridain]

I would simply expand upon this further. I would discover what interplanetary causes may also be causing this downfall of this civilization. It was originally a multi-planatary empire after all, perhaps the main reason for its current collapse is the hatred and ongoing war with its former planets.

[goplayer7]

Well I basicly ask for the interaction for each of the factors within themselves and with other civilizations. Is that what you are talking about or something else?

[Moridain]

Ahh, I had assumed when asking for Political figures you meant simply those with the Vorum race itself.

In that case, withdrawn.

[Monsoon]

I still don't see the point of knowing what will happen if we don't intervene - the quandary we were given has us taking one of two choices: restore the Verum to power, or bring about their downfall. If we do nothing, the situation continues indefinitely, and if we focus on that we aren't focusing on solving the problem.

[Moridain]

Personally the only reason I see to intervene is for the betterment of the planet Verum and those it is in contact with. By discovering what would occur without our intervention we discover a great deal. If we discover that an overlord intends to quell the populations militarialistic side within the next ten years, and will succeed, then it changes our goal from 'save or not to save' to 'destroy or not to destroy'. It is a marked change, at least in my opinion.

And we have yet to determine whether or not the situation will continue indefinatly. In fact I believe we were informed directly that, without intervension, the planet Verum will fail,