#1
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a per encounter spell point system that actually works....
Yes, point system already exists, and it's called Psionics. But that is a per day ont system, and and UA already has a substitute for that. But you still burn though a crap load of points or the day, and end up adventuring or 15 mintues before resting. Lame! This system is actually an adaptation I have or the ToB as a point system, using reresh mecancis. ... but if you make points too easily accessible, everyone spams their top spells and it gets even more broken than the vancian system already is... it's a matter of accessing how often can you cast your big spells without limiting how many times per day or encounter you can use them. So, a caster starts with a set amount of points in ther spell pool at any given time. they can use those poins to pa for casting spells as opften as they want, until they run out of points. they then need to recharge their pool. A standard action will allow for a "recovery" of a fraction of the full amount based on the level of caster, or "adaptive style" can be taken as a feat to allow for a full refresh of ALL their points in the pool, at the cost of a full round action. This first table shows how much it costs to cast a spell at each level. Spells cost different amounts to cast, depending on what type of spell it is: Exigent or Sustained. Exigent Spells (exg): These spells have an immediate effect upon casting. SoD, blast, transportation, and most evocations will fall within this category. Once the spell is cast, he points are spent, and can be recoverd like normal. Sustained Spells (sus): These spells have an enduring effect that often benefit allies, hinder enemies, or modify the environment. Haste, slow, solid fog, web all fall within this category. When you cast a sustained spell, it costs less, but you cannot recover those points while the spell is being sustained.. you effectively "lock" those poins from the pool to allow for the effect to continue from round to round. It is possible for a caster to lock ALL his points, and be unable to recover his pool at all. This is a very "Gish" thing to do.. stack on a load of buffs, and focus on melee. Aother caster could forego any buffing whatsoever so te entire pool is readily available or blasting or SoD's. Another can go low on buffs, and focus more on spending points on sstaining battlefield control anddebuffing enemies. Code:
Spell Cost Level Exigent Sustain 0 0 0 1 3 1 2 9 3 3 15 5 4 21 7 5 27 9 6 33 11 7 39 13 8 45 15 9 51 17 Below you can see how all the differet basic caster types progress... Code:
Full Caster 6/9 Caster 4/9 Caster Class Spell Spell Class Spell Spell Class Spell Spell Level Pool Refresh Level Level Pool Refresh Level Level Pool Refresh Level 1 4 2 1 1 4 1 1 1 x x 2 6 4 2 6 2 2 x x 3 10 6 2 3 8 3 3 x x 4 12 8 4 10 4 2 4 3 1 1 5 15 10 3 5 12 5 5 5 2 6 18 12 6 14 6 6 7 2 7 21 14 4 7 16 7 3 7 9 3 8 24 16 8 18 8 8 11 3 2 9 28 18 5 9 21 9 9 13 4 10 32 20 10 24 10 4 10 15 4 11 36 22 6 11 27 11 11 17 5 3 12 40 24 12 30 12 12 19 6 13 45 26 7 13 33 13 5 13 21 6 14 50 28 14 36 14 14 23 7 4 15 55 30 8 15 39 15 15 25 7 16 60 32 16 43 16 6 16 28 8 17 66 34 9 17 47 17 17 31 8 18 72 36 18 51 18 18 34 9 19 76 38 19 55 19 19 37 10 20 82 40 20 59 20 20 40 10 When a spell is cast, subtract the appropriate amount of points whether it is Exigent, or Sustainable. The level of spell, type of spell, and number of spells is dictated solely by the amount of points available in the pool. A caster may recover lost spell points in one of two ways: 1. Spend a standard action to recover the number of points indicated by caster level. This amount cannot exceed the maximum spell pool determined by level, and if the number of sustained spells is high enough, the caster may not be able to recover the full amount of points typically allowed*. 2. The general feat, "Adaptive Style" may be selected to spend a full round action to recover the full spell pool, minus any points dedicated to sustaining existing spells*. *A caster can potentially use every point in his pool to sustain a spell. This would result in NO spell points being recovered by either standard actions or Adaptive Style. Any number of sustained spells may be dismissed as a free action prior to recovering spell points. The dismissed spells end their effects immediately, as though dispelled. Spells Known Each class has a set number of spells that can be prepared for use at any given time. This is determined by the individual classes and class levels. the list of spells "known" or "prepared" determines how many spells of each spell level a caster has available to spend spell points at any given time. Normal rules for acquiring spells, stat needed to cast, etc apply. High stats allow for additional spells to be available of the appropriate level. HIgh stats do not allow for additional spell points in the pool, or more points to be recoverd. Spontaneous casters still function the same as before on known spells. Once a spell is known, it can be used repeatedly as dictated by spell point usage. Prepared casters perform the same as Spontaneous casters, but an hour of time must be spent after full rest to study a spell book to set what the known spells for that day are. Divine casters must spend an hour each day praying for the spells to be known. These may be any spells as normally dictated by the divine class. Divine casters that have spontaneous spells available, and domain spells do not count against the total spells prayed for that day. They are essentially "free" and always "known", assuming the requisite hour of time is spent praying. Psions, like Spontaneous arcane casters, never need to study to use their powers. Their powers are set as the same everyday. Differences in classes: 1. Wizard and Sorceror are now the same class. gain the wizard's feats per level, and prepared spells are the known spells per day. Allow for both wizard and sorceror specific spells to be available for use. 2. Cleric replaces any instance of favored soul. Heal spells, though fitting the general format of Exigent Spells, pay the Sustain Spell costs. This is strictly an incentive for healers to more readily heal as an inexpensive option during combat. This stands true for Druids, Bards, or any other caster with access to the cure wound line of spells. 3. Druids are relatively unchanged. 4. Psions lose their current Psp progression, and conform to this method of progression instead. Focus is no longer necesary to perform metamagic feats... though other feats may require focus as normal. What about Metamagic? 1. Metamagic works as normal in that it increases the total leve of the spell cast. This has not changed. 2. A caster must still be of sufficient level to cast the spell to take advantage of the feat. -- Example: A 9th level wizard can cast a quickened magic missle. This will then be treated as a 5th level Exigent Spell, and will cost 27 points to cast, instead of the normal 3 as a level 1 unmodified spell. -- Example: A 9th level wizard can cast a quickened mage armour. This will then be treated as a 5th level Sustain Spell, and will cost 9 points to cast, instead of the normal 1 as a level 1 unmodified spell. ------ in the case of a sustained spell, the metamagic only counts towards the initial casting, unless the metamagic has an ongoing effect. ------ Example: a 9th level wizard can cast a quickened mage armour as a 5th level spell, costing 9 points to activate, but to sustain the spell, it costs only 1. ------ Example: a 9th level wizard can cast a widened web spell as a 5th level sustain spell, costing 9 points to activate, and will cost the full 9 points, since the widened web is an ongoing effect... covering more area than normally allowed by a web spell. -- IF insufficient points are available to cast the modified spell, it is an illegal action to cast. -- Extend as a metamagic feat is no longer necesary... spells with a variable duration are now sustainable, and last as long as the caster is willing to invest spell points. SO now, any time you gain access to a new spell level, it is going to take virtually all of your pool to cast an exigent spell. This will force a recharge by standard action or full round action after castin it. 5th level wizard can pop a fireball all day, but will have to spend a standard action next round recharging. Or can pop a few Exg spells before recharging, or can have a LOT of bufs active, and sacreice SoD's, and Blasting. THis allows for archetypes to be maintained without overpowering others... the DMM priest can still do all te DMM tricks, and pay or the sustaining costs, while still having spell power available to heal, and occasionally drop some damage out of melee. This still allows for the same flexibility that the ver1.0 had, but places reasonable limits on the classes like ver 2.0. I think this is a better solution, feels a lot more like ToB mechanics from the book... use some good powers, take a moment to refresh. Virtually all spells fit within exg, sus, or hyb spells costs. Feedback appreciated here.
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Current game: 3.5 Trailblazer E6 Acquired Gestalt Eberron Spelljammer Planescape Mayhem I'm also looking for some folks for a Darksun E6 skype game... I paint sometimes too. My most recent work is on the cover of Explosive Runes #18. Last edited by Fil kearney; Dec 1st, 2008 at 01:53 PM. |
#2
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I'll run some examples of a wizard at different levels to better illustrate what I am proposing here.
Bear in mind, higher level casting stats don't grant any extra points, but it does allow for additional spells to be "known" for the day.allow or extra Hopefully this helped clarify how things flow. The math can get a little dizzying... so you are going to want a tracking sheet. That is the only down side. Math.
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Current game: 3.5 Trailblazer E6 Acquired Gestalt Eberron Spelljammer Planescape Mayhem I'm also looking for some folks for a Darksun E6 skype game... I paint sometimes too. My most recent work is on the cover of Explosive Runes #18. |
#3
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How will permanent spells work? Are your points forever locked, or can you releive the victim of the permanent spell to regain your spellpoints?
Blindness/Deafness immideatly comes to mind. Also, how will casters that have an odd spells per day table be handled? Like Dusblades, Duskblades get like 10 spells-per-day of 1st and 2cd level, but have a slightly worse spell progression then a bard. So for simplicity would they be treated as a 6/9 caster? Will psionics and spellcasters overlapse one another? If they do overlapse, does this mean that we'll be using the spellpoint varaint as in unearthed arcana to "powerup" spells? Like, say I want to cast magic missle. It's an exigent spell so it's going to cost 3 spellpoints. Does it just cost a flat three like it would in Final Fantasy, and my character/class level determines it's caster level? Or would I have to do like unearthed arcana and augment the spell? Cause if so, by the standard of UA. To reach the magic missle's full potential, would cost me in total 11 spellpoints. (8 for augmentation, 3 originaly) And if I figure if it's good enough for psionics, it's good enough for spellcasters lol! Will psionics powers be seperated into exigent/sustain too? Will Druids replenish their spellpoints along with HP/stat damage when they wildshape? I know I asked alot of questions, probably all of which have common sense answers. But I like the system. It makes you think in advance. "Should I use an exigent spell and exhaust my resources? Or a sustain spell and have trouble recharging?" It says something about the character's personality too. Obviously a young, free-spirited mage is not going to want to be bogged down by spells that require timing, patience, and effect them longterm. He's going to cast fireball then run lol! Spelltheives will actually be playable under this system. (Though require a bit of forethought) I could see a spelltheif doing his thing of stealing an exigent spell. Thus their spellpoints are squandred, the spell is lost, and the spelltheif can perform it for what's basically free. That'd piss anybody off lol! Last edited by ToB Fighter; Nov 10th, 2008 at 05:10 PM. |
#4
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Quote:
http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthrea...77#post2980477 Quote:
Others are a cast by case basis... taking the top level spell they can cast as the scale on which they operate... like the telflamar shadowlord... 6 level class with 3rd level access would look like: Code:
class spell spell level level pool recovery 1 1 3 1 2 5 2 3 2 7 2 4 9 3 5 3 11 3 6 13 4 Quote:
psionics are also exactly as is... they will be separated into exg and sus (whether they have a duration or not) but are still augmentable. the need for focus is removed thogh. All spell pools are separate for now... psi arcane divine and further divided for crzy multiclassers (wizard/deread necro will have two separate pools) Later this will be explored as a single "arcane" pool, "divine" pool "psi" pool.. but not for now. Quote:
Quote:
keep em coming! Here is a playtesting invite thread for those interested... http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthrea...13#post2977513
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Current game: 3.5 Trailblazer E6 Acquired Gestalt Eberron Spelljammer Planescape Mayhem I'm also looking for some folks for a Darksun E6 skype game... I paint sometimes too. My most recent work is on the cover of Explosive Runes #18. Last edited by Fil kearney; Nov 11th, 2008 at 11:02 PM. |
#5
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Will casters still be able to cast a spell permanently for an exp cost or has the spell permanency been taking off the list?
Also will a caster be able to cast a sustained Wish spell? depending upon what his wish might be that might be a little broken unless you make wishes sustaining cost a lot higher than other spells.
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Sleep is but an eclipse of life, and time merely the perception of change. |
#6
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Kael, you have caused me to reconsider my response to Tob Fighter above.. so I am revising my answer here.
Established: sustain and hybrid spells maintain an effect while the points remain invested. Clarification: 1. ranges on spells remain the same. if the target (individual, item, or area) becomes separated from the caster beyond the range of the spell, the effect ends, and the points are available to recover. 2. spells as per the permanency spell can still be permanized as listed in the book. by expending the Xp listed, the spell becomes permanent, and the points invested to sustain the spells become available to recover. 3. wish normally costs xp to cast. for any permanent effect, like wishing for stuff or some sort of permanent change, this xp cost remains. wish isn this circumstance is an exg spell... 51 points. spend te xp and te poins become available to recover. if wish is simply being used to duplicate a spell, no xp is required, but the spell in question is considered to be 9th... for example, if a wizard chooses to use wish to cast magic missle, it will cost 51 points to cast instead of the normal 3 magic missle would actually cost to cast as a 1st level exg spell. Further general alterations: 1. spells like blindness and baleful polymorph are SoDs that cause permanent effects under normal rules. These are now hybrids. the adverse condition will continue to affect the target as long as the sus points are invested. These spells MAY be become permanent if the caster is willing to invest xp. Te cost to permanize a normally permanent effect is as follows: 0 = 5 xp 1 = 25 xp 2 = 125 xp 3 = 375 xp 4 = 700 xp 5 = 1125 xp 6 = 1650 xp 7 = 2275 xp 8 = 3000 xp 9 = 4000 xp This will also be in effect for spells such as permanent iamge, secret page, secret chest, geas, sequester, and other spells with a duration measured in days or longer, including permanent.. None of these spells are considered permanent until the listed amount of xp is invested. This doesn't actually change how any spells work, it simply changes how you will use these spells. a secure chest is now a true investment. permanent image is a significant investment, but you can leave it actie as long as you stay in range, and are willing to leave the points invested. blindness, baleful polymorph: you have to be a sincere jerk to blow xp to leave someone in that condition. As SoD's they are sufficient in screwing up the oponent, and from a tactical point of view, cost no more than any other debuff... but since they have a duration of permanent, if you really want to ruin that person, you can spend xp to do so. This is an intentional "debuffing" of casters. they can still do everything they already can, but now they have to decide if they really want to make it permanent. THis has absolutely no effect on crafting feats, though I have modeled the xp tables to be virtually identical to the costs of a permnent magic item, so the costs are precednedted already. I will consider whether permanency will allow ANY spell to be made permanent for the above costs... it's worth considering, but not until all later phases o the testing. at tat time, permanency may be dropped altogether, either banning any permanized spells beyond item crafting, or allowing any spell to be permanized by simply spending the xp. THi will be tested later if everything runs smoothly initially, though it is certainly open for debate. This is an added level of complexity for some spells, but it is uniform in it's aplication. To review: any SoD spell with permanent duration is now a hybrid spell. any othe spell with a duration beyond hourly is still a sustain spell, but can spend xp as above to make permanent to reclaim the spell points for recovery. xp spent cannot be recovered. Dispelling permanized spells like this arev treated as outlined in permanancy. Hm.. Permanizing has level prereqs under "permanency"... obviously following a pattern: Code:
spell caster level = level 0 = 9 1 = 9 2 = 10 3 = 11 4 = 12 5 = 13 6 = 14 7 = 15 8 = 16 9 = 17
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Current game: 3.5 Trailblazer E6 Acquired Gestalt Eberron Spelljammer Planescape Mayhem I'm also looking for some folks for a Darksun E6 skype game... I paint sometimes too. My most recent work is on the cover of Explosive Runes #18. Last edited by Fil kearney; Nov 13th, 2008 at 12:49 AM. |
#7
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looks like a good fix to me, otherwise some spell effects would be broken, and others would break the system and be hugely exploitable such as wish or the one cleric gets that is similar
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Sleep is but an eclipse of life, and time merely the perception of change. |
#8
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a bit complicated looking at it as a whole, but we don't play spellcasters because they're easy (at least i don't think so). Well for the spellcasting classes i will be using this should work just fine, thought knowing me i may end up more OP than before. I also could'a swore that i heard the 4e was gonna have something like this, as in spells per encounter but i guess not. I'll see if i can't get a home playtest with some friends and let you know...if i can lol
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对不起,我的中文不好~ 对不起对不起,我还要跟你当朋友~。 |
#9
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Testing thread is officially open.
http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showt...246#post2985246 If you are interested, swing on by.
__________________
Current game: 3.5 Trailblazer E6 Acquired Gestalt Eberron Spelljammer Planescape Mayhem I'm also looking for some folks for a Darksun E6 skype game... I paint sometimes too. My most recent work is on the cover of Explosive Runes #18. |
#10
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This variant looks certainly interesting.
How does Divine Metamagic work with this system? |
#11
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obviously persistance is irrelevant, since the durations persist until the points are reallocated.
both dmm and the bard variants alow metamagics to be added to a spell for no increased level... so tis would translate to spells not increasing in level-- or cot-- dor dmm spell usage... a 1st level sustained spell with dmm enlarged would still only be one point to activate and maintain. The only thing that is fundamentally changed by this system is how often you can cast spells and how many spells you can have active at once. with "unlimited" spells per day, the real balance is limiting how many at a time. exg flashy kill spells cost a lot to do, which limits a caster's ability to buf up and become unkillable. while focusing on control or bufing limits your direct damage or SoD acces.. you simply cannot have the best of all worlds in this design... which is really what makes casters so powerful to begin with... they can do everything. and the published system lets them do everything at once... for a very limitied times per day. This forces metagaming logic that if can only throw 2 lightning bolts a day.. if I' out of lightning bolts, the day better be over. Now, you can throw lightning bolts all day if you want. it doesn't matter how many or few encounters you have. Each one will be as thouh you are "fresh" for the day. The one thing that is worth considering is "daily" use abilities of other non caster clases. like rage, dervish dances, smites, etc. a long term question is, do these abilities need to be altered to "at will" as well, since they are deigned to model agaist "I have three top spells per day". This could go a long way to making a paladin comparable to a direct damage caster or a ToB warrior. Only thorough playtesting of various combinations over time will show where the system breaks.
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Current game: 3.5 Trailblazer E6 Acquired Gestalt Eberron Spelljammer Planescape Mayhem I'm also looking for some folks for a Darksun E6 skype game... I paint sometimes too. My most recent work is on the cover of Explosive Runes #18. |
#12
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paladin is a real interesting example of a mediocre class that potentially has a lot to gain.. what is often an overlooked spell resource as too limited to consider a key element is now a menu of persistant buffs or renewable combat routines.
ToB classes are thought generally to be superior to the paladin because of their per encounter resources that quickly outpace the paladin. If smite were to become "at will", the combination of persistant buffing / renewable spell routines would balance nicely with the enhanced smiting damage... would at will smiting unbalance the character as a standard action attack vs full attack sequences? I'll have someone go pal20. Im enthusiastic about the possibilities.
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Current game: 3.5 Trailblazer E6 Acquired Gestalt Eberron Spelljammer Planescape Mayhem I'm also looking for some folks for a Darksun E6 skype game... I paint sometimes too. My most recent work is on the cover of Explosive Runes #18. |
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