Point Based Martial Adepts

[Fil kearney]

Some may argue that ToB is fine as is.. Obviously I disagree, so let's go!
By converting adepts to a point system, it increases flexibility in a class that should be balanced against casters, not non adept melee clases.
Ths will allow for more use of maneuvers overall, lessening the gap between melee and castin.


Big diference: there is no difference between known and readied maneuvers. If you know a maneuver, it is readied.
Second big difference: they can use the same maneuver repeatedly as long as they have the points to do it.

Swordsage and Warblade start with a maximum pool of points that they draw off of until it is depleted, and then they recover those points as dictated by their clas and level, instead of recovering the maneuvers themselves.
Crusaders start with NO pool, but automatically accumulate points per round, maxing at a number determined by level.
I"ll go into these differences in further depth below.

Maneuvers cost points as shown in the chart below. Stances don't cost any points at all.

Maneuvers        
Level   Cost 
   1        1 
   2        3 
   3        5 
   4        7 
   5        9 
   6       11 
   7       13 
   8       15 
   9       17

As you can see, this mirrors the psionic progression.


The concept is simple enough, but application is key.
Look at each Adept progresion below, and I'll discuss each individually.


CL = Class Level
MP = amount of maneuver oints at each level in the pool
ST = Stances known
MK = number of maneuvers known.

PR = how many poits are recovered each round normally:
Warblade = swift action + standard attack/flourish mechanic
Crusader = Automatically refreshes at beginning of round
Swordsage = NO Point Recovery Mechanic. See below.

 

CL MP MK ST PR 
01 03   3  1 01 
02 04   4  1 02 
03 05   5  1 03 
04 06   5  2 04 
05 07   6  2 05 
06 08   6  2 06 
07 10   7  2 07 
08 12   7  2 08 
09 14   8  2 09 
10 16   8  3 10 
11 18   9  3 11 
12 20   9  3 12 
13 23   10  3 13 
14 26   10  3 14 
15 29   11  3 15 
16 33   11  4 16 
17 37   12  4 17 
18 41   12  4 18 
19 45   13  4 19 
20 49   13  4 20

Verysimple. The warblade has a pool of points to spend on maneuvers. He keeps spending them until he runs out of points. Then he refreshes. Either by a swift action + a standard to attack or flourish, or using adaptive style.
The amount of points in a warblade's pool is small. he can only perform his top level maneuver once before needing to refresh. at level 17+, he can use 9th level powers twice before needing to refresh.
This is specifically to force warblade to consider his tactics... does he want to "waste" a round getting his top stuff back, or just use the plethora of lower level maneuvers to remain active each round..
His rate of recovery is high enough that he can always use the highest level maneuver immediately afterwards.

 

CL MP MK ST PR 
01 01 5  1 01 
02 02 5  2 01 
03 04 6  2 02 
04 05 6  2 02 
05 06 7  2 03 
06 08 7  2 04 
07 09 8  2 04 
08 10 8  3 05 
09 12 9  3 06 
10 13 9  3 06 
11 14 10  3 07 
12 16 10  3 08 
13 17 11  3 08 
14 18 11  4 09 
15 20 12  4 10 
16 21 12  4 10 
17 22 13  4 11 
18 24 13  4 12 
19 25 14  4 12 
20 26 14  4 13

Crusaders start combat with 0 points in their pool. They gain a number of points at the beginning of their turn as indicated by their level. If these points are not used, they will continue to accumulate until the maximum number in their pool is reached.

For example, a 2nd level crusader accumulates one point at the beginning of each round. If none of these points are used, on the second round, the crusader will have 2 points in his pool. The next round, no points are gained, because the crusader has reached the maximum number of points allowed for his level.

Outside of combat, a Crusader may access his maneuvers by meditating for 5 minutes. At the end of the meditation, the crusader may select ONE maneuver that he knows. That maneuver must be used within one minute (10 rounds) or be lost. Points in combat do not accumulate until this maneuver is either used, or abandoned. The following round, points will begin to accumulate as normal.

For example, a 5th level crusader has White Raven Tactics available as a 3rd level maneuver.
His team plans to ambush a group of orcs, so the crusader begins to meditate. After 5 minutes, he selects White Raven Tactics, and will be available to use for the next 10 rounds. His team moves into position, and on the 3rd round of readying, his team attacks. On his action, he uses White Raven Tactics to gain the advantage over the orcs! Since the Crusader has used WRT, on round 4, he receives 3 points to use as normal... he can choose to use some of these points on either 2nd or 1st level maneuvers, or he may wait until next round, when he would acquire 3 more points. The maximum in his pool is 7... so he will have 6, and next round instead of receiving 3 more, he will have only 1.more, totalling 7 (6+1).


This bit was a lot wordier than the warblade, but it's not as straight forward. I'll work on that.
Notice that (aside from level 1 and 4) the amount of points he is inspired with each round is never enough to activate his highest level maneuvers. This is another balance against spamming infinite awesome.... he can either skip a round to get te good stuff, or use what he has now to best effect.

REVISED 11/23/08:
I've reduced the total pool size for mid and higher levels. The pools are large enough to hold a top level maneuver and at least one other lower level maneuver... if the batery is too large, a crusader will be able to spam high level maneuvers as fast as if not better than a swordsage can. This would make crusacer the obvious choice to play, since they have more high leel maneuvers more often.
I"ve reduced the rate of recovery for the mid and high levels. ONly at level 1 & 2 do you recover points fast enough to use your top maneuvers each round. Thereater, you need at least a second round to accumulate enough points to use your top maneuvers. THis prevents excessive spamming of high level powers.

 

CL MP MK ST PR 
01 03 06 1 0 
02 06 07  2 0 
03 09 08  2 0 
04 12 09  2 0 
05 15 10  3 0 
06 18 11  3 0 
07 21 12  3 0 
08 24 13  3 0 
09 27 14  4 0 
10 30 15  4 0 
11 33 16  4 0 
12 36 17  4 0 
13 39 18  4 0 
14 42 19  5 0 
15 45 20  5 0 
16 48 21  5 0 
17 51 22  5 0 
18 54 23  5 0 
19 57 24  5 0 
20 60 25  6 0

Swordsage has NO standard recovery mechanic: he gains adaptive syle as a free feat to use, and recovers his full point pool with a full round action.

Of course, the swordsage's big advantage is the sheer numbers of maneuvers known. And his pool is substantial... he can normally use his highest level maneuver three times before needing to refresh.. At higher levels, he can spam low maneuvers practically all day before needing to refresh.
The adaptive style mechanic, and no recovery rate otherwise makes the sage choose between those to options. when he needs to recover, it takes him out of the fight completely that round, so he needs to really decide if he wants to use a high level maneuver.

REVISION 11/24/2008:
I increased the pool of points swordsage has available each level, except level 1 was lessened. We now have a smooth power curve in tat the sage can use top level power 3 times and completely exhaust his pool. This will allow a higher level sage to last MANY rounds without recovering if he sticks to lower level mneuvers, and can keep pace in over all power with the crusader and warblade


Again, my big goal here is to put Adepts on more even groud with casters.. raising their level of power while keepng the challenge and "fun" of choosing your moves wisely, working with your team.

Clarifications?
Feedback most appreciated.

[jj_wolven]

That looks pretty good.

Do stances remain the same?

The only thing it really doesn't emulate is the randomness of the Crusader's maneuvers.

-me

[ToB Fighter]

I was going to ask in the other thread. But this seems more relevant here.

Would a spelltheif's steal spell apply to manuevers/stances? Seeing as they seem to be "supernatural". And they function alot like spells..

Another question, though I'm sure you already thought ahead probably. Is.. will the mana of fighters/casters be different?

That is to say, spellcasters recharge at a rate depending on the spells they cast, so it's safe to assume they can't cheat and multiclass into a warblade to make that mana dubious right?

In simplistic terms, i refer to it in my head as "red and blue mana".

[Fil kearney]

I agree JJ. the randomness of crusaders is gone, but this is just taking "inspiration" from a different angle by awarding points as he goes, allowig him to be inspired to use various techniques he has studied. same flavor, different mechanic.
Yes, stances remain the same, though I could see the development of "metastance" and "metamaneuver" feats and advancement like psions currently have... but I will let playtesting work through the problem areas before expanding on the idea.

LInk to playtesting invite here:
http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthrea...13#post2977513

[Fil kearney]

ToB Fighter: exaclty. In fact, swordsage, crusader and warblade pools are currently completely separate. Considering how different their mechanics are, they won't likely ever lend, though they can still use each other or prereqs on maneuvers.

As for spelltheif, B came out after Cadv, so they never really considered it at all. I think this system would lend itself more readily to doing so because it is so like the psithirf variant. If you allow thespellthief have universal transpaency, then hew could swipe spells, psionics, and maneuvers alike... very versatile, and therefore a more attractive option.

that is more likely DM caveat, but yes, it could work.

[Fil kearney]

Testing thread is officially open.
http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showt...246#post2985246
If you are interested, swing on by.

[Fil kearney]

Revision to the Crusader today:
I've reduced the total pool size for mid and higher levels. The pools are large enough to hold a top level maneuver and at least one other lower level maneuver... if the batery is too large, a crusader will be able to spam high level maneuvers as fast as if not better than a swordsage can. This would make crusacer the obvious choice to play, since they have more high leel maneuvers more often.
I"ve reduced the rate of recovery for the mid and high levels. ONly at level 1 & 2 do you recover points fast enough to use your top maneuvers each round. Thereater, you need at least a second round to accumulate enough points to use your top maneuvers. THis prevents excessive spamming of high level powers.

Here is a comparative of "spamming" top level powers for each adept type:

 

Level 5: (top maneuver: 3rd level, 5 points)
Crusader:
accumulates 3 points per round, maximum of 6... it takes 2 rounds for his pool to be full.
1st round: gain 3 points: total 3 points: use 1st level manuever, 2 point left
2nd round gain 3 points total 5 points: use 3rd level manuever, 0 points left
3rd round: gain 3 points: total 3 points: use 1st level manuever, 2 point left
4th round gain 3 points total 5 points: use 3rd level manuever, 0 points left
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 12.
Swordsage:
Starts with 15 points, must spend a full round to recover 9 points.
1st round: use 3rd level maneuver, 10 points left
2nd round: use 3rd level maneuver, 5 points left
3rd round: use 3rd level maneuver, 0 points left
4th round refresh full pool
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 15
Warblade:
Starts with 7 points, recovers 5 with a satandard refresh, or may use adaptive style.
1st round: 3rd level maneuver, 2 points left
2nd round: standard recovery, 5 points gained
3rd round: 3rd level maneuver, 2 points left
4th round: standard recovery, 5 points gained
Over 4 rounds, only 10 points used.

Level 10: (top maneuver 5th level, 9 points)
Crusader:
accumulates 6 points per round, maximum of 13... it takes 3 rounds for his pool to be full.
1st round: gain 6 points: total 6 points: use 2nd level manuever, 3 point left
2nd round gain 6 points total 9 points: use 5th level manuever, 0 points left
3rd round: gain 6 points: total 6 points: use 2nd level manuever, 3 point left
4th round gain 6 points total 9 points: use 5th level manuever, 0 points left
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 24.
Swordsage:
Starts with 30 points, must spend a full round to recover 9 points.
1st round: use 5th level maneuver, 21 points left
2nd round: use 5th level maneuver, 12 points left
3rd round: use 5th level maneuver, 3 points left
4th round refresh full pool
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 27
Warblade:
Starts with 16 points, recovers 10 with a satandard refresh, or may use adaptive style.
1st round: 5th level maneuver, 7 points left
2nd round: 4th level maneuver, 0 points left
3rd round: standard recovery with an attack: 10 points gained
4th round: 5th level maneuver, 3 ponts left
Over 4 rounds, 25 points used, but no downtime.

Level 15: (top maneuver 8th level, 15 points)
Crusader:
accumulates 10 points per round, maximum of 20... it takes 2 rounds for his pool to be full.
1st round: gain 10 points: total 10 points: use 3rd level manuever, 5 point left
2nd round gain 10 points total 15 points: use 8th level manuever, 0 points left
3rd round: gain 10 points: total 10 points: use 3rd level manuever, 5 point left
4th round gain 10 points total 15 points: use 8th level manuever, 0 points left
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 40.
Swordsage:
Starts with 45 points, must spend a full round to recover 9 points.
1st round: use 8th level maneuver, 15 points left
2nd round: use 8th level maneuver, 15 points left
3rd round: use 8th level maneuver, 15 points left
4th round refresh full pool
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 45
Warblade:
Starts with 29 points, recovers 15 with a satandard refresh, or may use adaptive style.
1st round: 8th level maneuver, 14 points left
2nd round: 7th level maneuver, 0 points left
3rd round: standard recovery with an attack: 15 points gained
4th round: 8th level maneuver, 1 pont left
Over 4 rounds, 43 points used, but no downtime.

Level 20: (top maneuver 9h level, 17points)
Crusader:
accumulates 13 points per round, maximum of 26... it takes 2 rounds for his pool to be full.
1st round: gain 13 points: total 15 points: use 5th level manuever, 4 point left
2nd round gain 13 points total 17 points: use 9th level manuever, 0 points left
3rd round: gain 13 points: total 15 points: use 5th level manuever, 4 point left
4th round gain 13 points total 17 points: use 9th level manuever, 0 points left
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 52.
Swordsage:
Starts with 60 points, must spend a full round to recover 9 points.
1st round: use 9th level maneuver, 43 points left
2nd round: use 9th level maneuver, 26 points left
3rd round: use 9th level maneuver, 9 points left
4th round refresh full pool
5th round: repeat ad infinitum
points spent over 4 rounds: 51
Warblade:
Starts with 49 points, recovers 20 with a standard refresh, or may use adaptive style.
1st round: 9th level maneuver, 32 points left
2nd round: 9th level maneuver, 15 points left
3rd round: 8th level maneuver, 0 points left
4th round: standard recovery with an attack
Over 4 rounds, 49 points used, but no downtime.

If points spent over time is a factor of balance, then these guys are all pretty well matched. Only playtesting over tie will prove if that is actually true.

Crusader can always do something, nd he may as well. skipping a round will almost guarantee he will have full pool the following round, and there is no added benefit. So it is fine to spend a round on a full attack and then follow up with a top tier maneuver next round.
Or he can spam medium power maneuvers perpetually: at level 9 he can spam 3rd level maneuvers every round all day. at 13th: 4th level maneuver. at 17th, 6th level maneuvers.
Or he can wait a round and pop a top level maneuver.

Thw swordsabge starts really strong, but then has to rest. He HAS to stop and waste a full round action to recover all his points... but he can always spam his top maneuver 3 times. He could prolong his pool by choosing less expensive maneuvers. but he will eventually burn out.

The warblade is kind of a hybrid of the other two... he has a pool he can hit hard with top tier maneuvers right away, but it trickles out much faster. he doesn't have to sit out for the round to recharge (though he can if he spends a feat on it.), but he can only make a standard attack.. which is pretty much a 1st level maneuver. Afte the standard recovery, he can always use a top maneuver... so he can take a "dump round" to standard attack, and follow up with hi best stuff... or he can sustain a number of lesser attacks over quite a few rounds. The tempo is mostly set by how he uses his initial points.

All three classes have their own strategies involved, and only testing over time will show us if any are out of synch.

[Fil kearney]

How about multiclassing?

Works the same as before... every 2 levels of non class earns you one IL.
So there is class levels and there is IL levels.

class levels determines how many maneuvers and stances known.
Initiator levels determine pool and recovery points, and maximum level of maneuvers/stances known.

So a crusader4/warblade4 would have:
Crusader:
4CL = 6 maneuvers and 2 stances.
6IL = max level maneuver/stances known: 3rd; Pool of 8, and receives 4 each round,.
warbalde:
4CL = 5 maneuvers and 2 stances.
6IL = max level maneuvers/stances known: 3rd; Pool of 8, and recovers 6 with a standard action mechanic.