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Old 09-17-2017, 01:13 AM
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Why I find the game application process disrespectful

First off before we get started with the meat of this I want point out that a staffer is the person that told me that I ought to bring this out in this format and I am just following their advise.

It is such a shame that this sight chooses to allow such a rampant flow of disrespect and not only do they allow it they seem to actually encourage it.

The most obvious being the game application process. The DM comes on and says "Hey I got game, now show me if you are good enough to play in my game" but the individual offers nothing that warrants such a measure of trust and further offers no guarantees that after someone spends several hours working up a character that that time will get them anything more than "Nah you are not good enough for me." And they may even offer fake condolences by saying "Better luck next time."

Personally I have already out lasted two DMs on this site and I imagine I will out last a slew more (as I did before) and yet these same DMs and more (but granted not all) feel it is okay to act with an "I am better than you" attitude. That their time is more valuable than a players. Some even get rather personal about the information they request. Then if you approach them with any resistance privately they then go public with some lame apology that they obviously do not even mean. Partially because taking a private conversation public is being quite disrespectful in its own right, but hey they started off being disrespectful so why stop?

So the most prevalent abuse of disrespect on this site is of course the status quo application process that most DMs are seemingly encouraged to use by this site to acquire players for a game they wish to run.

However before I dig into that let us examine a couple of very important elements.
  1. There is no game with out players, and good players make for a better game so players are just as important as the person running the game and to some degree, more so, because there are usually more of them.
  2. DMs on this site are about as dependable to stick it out as the players so there is nothing that makes a DM overtly special, they are just another person on this site -- equal footing
  3. DMs would not run a game if they did not enjoy doing so thus the DM gets enjoyment out of a game by being a DM while the players get enjoyment out of playing the game as players - basically again equal footing
  4. DMs are not guaranteed to be good DMs it is basically pot luck again nothing special here
In conclusion a DM is no better than a Player and a game usually has more Players than they do DMs so a DM should keep this in mind when seeking players but many (if not most) seem to lose sight of this and immediately step into that "I am better than you" mentality mode which is totally unnecessary and shows disrespect towards the potential players. Sadly though most players seem to be blind to this and do not understand just how badly they are being disrespected because it is the accepted norm or status quo promoted by this site.

Let me paint this picture a little bit differently. You apply for a job, and your potential boss looks over your credentials, examines your skills, and then just before he hires you he brings you into a room with all the other applicants and says. Impress me with your ability to suck up, brown nose, and/or lick my boots and then this potential boss seriously expect everyone in the room to clamber for the chance to do those very things. Now there are very few people that would not recognize that this individual has no respect for these potential employees. But then someone would say well he has something special he has a job but what if this company duration was not guaranteed. Say the job is with a start up company that may fold within a few months or weeks and they are not going to pay you any more than any other job that you could get any where else. Is this still all that special, some might argue yes and I would feel sad for them as that shows that they have no respect for themselves but I have to grant you those people do exist. In fact the world is full of folks that are willing to let themselves be disrespected on a daily basis -- mostly due to them having low self-esteem and these disrepecters feed off of this (knowingly or unknowingly) in a rather predatory manner because many of them have self-esteem issues themselves and putting themselves into a false superior position makes them feel a wee bit better about themselves. However the whole thing is lie and it is like a cancer, it just continues to grow and feed on itself and you can either turn a blind eye to it or can choose not to.

Now what many may not be aware of is that playing or running fantasy games tends to attract individuals that have some issues with self-esteem (I still struggle with it myself but I am working on it part of the reason I took a hiatus from gaming). Why do I mention this. Well because you have to understand just how horribly wrong it is to abuse individuals in this manner. Every time this is done and a person does not make the grade (which is a total lie to begin with as there are no grades) they take another hit to their self-esteem. Sure some folks have learned how to cope with this, and some operate in complete denial mode but it happens and on some level it hurts.

Now I recognized this a long time ago, when I was on another site similar to this one so many years ago. I started to examine it, and I did not like what I was seeing. As such from that point on I never requested an application, unless I was running a game for a particular purpose or person and then the application is only to make sure the character concept fits within the game design I am already committed to running. Otherwise, my whole criterion for accepting a player is that they show interest in playing the game I am planning on running. Heck sometimes I do not even have the concept created prior to speaking with the players (mostly happens with face-to-face games) because if I get players that would like to see something in a game I can often create a game that incorporates most if not all of the things they would like to see and I do this because I recognize that the players are just as important as I am and perhaps a bit more because there are more of them. Then my job as a GM is to make sure the characters are all balanced with one another and that the group will and does play nicely together as we move forward. Do I out last players (aka do some players come and go) most definitely they do. It is the nature of online gaming but having been doing this for many years I have found that it happens regardless of the player potential and certainly is not improved by making someone jump through hoops and bend over backwards for you prior to accepting them into your game.

Next most of the games on this site are 2-dimensional at best and maybe if the players are really good it develops a more 3-dimensional feel but the key here is not the DM but the players because I have yet to find a DM here that actually works with their players to create that 3rd dimension most seem to want to be spoon fed this when it is their responsibility to create it. In case you are not aware of what I am talking about let me explain.

1st Dimension
This is the mechanics of the character and some players and games never go any further than this. Which is just fine, if that is all you as a player are looking for but it can be rather dry.
2nd Dimension
This is the concept, personality, description, and sometimes an unattached background. Many players know how to do this, as it is often what many DMs require in their disrespectful contests to play in their game and it is outlined on the site on how to create an application to a game
3rd Dimension
This is the stuff that ties the first 2 dimensions strongly into the world and the campaign. Something that is done by a GM and should be done by a DM but they often do not. Why is this? Well because the GM (or DM) are the ones with the best understanding of what their world is like and what their campaign is going to be like and should have the best understanding how to weave a characters concept into their world and campaign. Further they are reviewing all the potential player characters (or at least should be but I wonder sometimes about that I mean if they are going to choose to be disrespectful in one way what is to prevent them from being disrespectful in other ways as well) they are considering accepting. Thus they are also the one in the best position to suggest ties between the various characters such that when the game starts there are already reasons for all the characters to be working together towards the common short term goals and hopefully to the long term goals as well (this obviously would do away with the cliche meeting of strangers in a tavern that this game is so well known for). However this dimension, even if you are lucky enough to make that fictional grade and are accepted into the game, does not usually happen because frankly I do not think many DMs are even aware of it. Either that or why bother with it, as they are much more important than those players who just got done sucking up to them just to play in their game.
Now due to this short coming, when I am a player, I often try to work with other players to set something like this up, because I know how much more fun this makes a game for everyone (including a DM even if they are not aware of it or how to do it themselves). Conversely as a GM I always do this with my players. I work with them to mesh their 2D backstory into the world in as meaningful a way as I can as well as weaving backstories together to create solid connections between players that will hopefully allow them to more quickly explore this aspect of role playing instead of hoping perhaps it might just generically happen which it sometimes does but not always.

I can guarantee you that if you ask any player, who has played a situation where their character and someone else's character (or more than one) created a meaningful relationship between their characters that the game usually ended up being a lot more fun to play. If you have not had this experience then keep looking as it can happen but let me also state it happens more frequently if it can be designed from the get go.

If you are still not convinced that the current status quo is woefully disrespectful then I challenge you to answer this question honestly. Why would someone have to ask, "If you are willing to allow a newbie in?"

This question every time I see it just pains me to the core. To think that anyone would have to "grovel" or even think that it was necessary to do so to just to get accepted into game is so, so very sad. But it is the conclusion to the status quo method that is being implemented today on this site. Just keep in mind, everyone was a newbie once there is no reason to disrespect someone for that reason -- and do not give that lie that everyone has to pay their dues - that is just rationalization for base behavior.

Oh and I have heard many of those why it is done excuses but frankly I have been doing this for more years than this site has existed and I can guarantee you you that they are all just excuses (the skim of the truth choke full of lies). Basically just human rationalizations of why it is okay to be disrespectful to ones fellow gamer. One of the first things that drew me to gaming was that you were often unconditionally accepted because there were just not that many of us out there and you were treated with respect by your fellow players. However with the increase in popularity it seems the venue for disrespect has increased almost just as much.

I would purpose that this status quo be ended and that DMs accepted the first however many players that apply to their game they are looking to have and work with them at building a 3d character or at least accept their 2d or 1d character if that is all the deeper their game is going to be.

Now I realize that this desire is mostly just pie in the sky. For realistically if this message even resonates with one other potential GM out there and they choose to stop this disrespectful practice and start operating as an equal then this will have been worth it. Or if even one player out there comes to understand how they are being disrespected when a DM requests this of them then again this will have been worth it. Because no one deserves to be disrespected without giving solid reasons for it and even then one should do their best to not crawl into bed with them by stooping to their level. Let us be higher quality people and stop the abuse by stop being disrespectful to one another. It really is not that hard.

Now I am more than willing to defend this position to anyone that feels my view is some how not true in some manner and are willing to express that in a respectful manner. But be forewarned I will speak out the truth as I have done above.
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Last edited by DeJoker; 09-17-2017 at 01:18 AM.
  #2  
Old 09-17-2017, 06:27 AM
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I think the first thing one should do when saying people are being disrespectful, is to not be so yourself. It utterly undermines any point you wish to make, valid or not, and you perpetuate something you seem to dislike. I also feel like you're utterly twisting and misconstruing things in order to make your point, which doesn't do you any favours--there are people here who are disrespectful, it's the internet, you don't need to stretch to try and make that point. However, by no means is it actively encouraged, and it seems like you're painting the whole community in a negative light because of a few bad eggs.

I'm not even sure where to begin breaking this down, but I guess at the start is as good a place as any.

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The DM comes on and says "Hey I got game, now show me if you are good enough to play in my game" but the individual offers nothing that warrants such a measure of trust and further offers no guarantees that after someone spends several hours working up a character that that time will get them anything more than "Nah you are not good enough for me." And they may even offer fake condolences by saying "Better luck next time."
That isn't what they are saying at all, you're twisting things. The DM posts their game advertisement and says: "Hey, I'd like to run this, would anyone be interested in playing?" Rather than take first come, first serve, they leave up for one, two, or even three weeks, in order to give everyone equal opportunity to say, "Hey, I'm interested and this is the character I'd like to play!" (This is a consequence of the medium: people who use play-by-post do so because they don't have the time or ability to do a live group (or just need to get their fix ) and missing out repeatedly because you can't check what's supposed to be a slower medium every single day is just... silly.)

At the end of that time, obviously they need to decide on a group. If picking the people they think would make a good group for the adventure they have in mind is disrespectful, what metric would you have them use? A coinflip or random draw would be massively, far more disrespectful. That you get from this, "Nah, you're not good enough," is just... you're so massively twisting things, I don't even know where to begin. "I think these four characters would be good for the adventure I have in mind," is a far, far cry from what you're imagining here. If anyone tacks on, "because the rest weren't good enough," to that, it is the fault of that person, not the DM.

It doesn't even mean the rest weren't good enough. In fact, a DM gets far more good applications than they could ever hope to accept. Any game you see with 20+ applications, I assure you at least half of those are more than "good enough." There's no callousness here when they pick, in fact, most every DM I've spoken to finds the process of having to narrow so many great applications down to a scant four to six is agonizing, and many will take more than they intend (I intended to take 4 for the last game I started--I ended up taking 10!) There is just a point, however, where they have to make a decision or the game will go nowhere.

Also, saying someone's condolences is fake, is so utterly, utterly disrespectful. I, and I'm sure many other DMs, when we say, "I'm sorry I couldn't accept more people," we genuinely bloody mean that. There is no gleeful callousness that we tell people to "take a hike and better luck next time." That's just so wrong, and I encourage you to report anyone who is an actual ******bag to the people who aren't accepted. That is not accepted here.

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Personally I have already out lasted two DMs on this site and I imagine I will out last a slew more (as I did before) and yet these same DMs and more (but granted not all) feel it is okay to act with an "I am better than you" attitude.
One could read this statement with an "I'm better than you tone," there was no need to say how you've outlasted two DMs and will outlast more. What's more, I'd be interested in seeing which statements a DM have made (names omitted) you think a DM has taken up such an attitude (or the attitude in general you've be getting so far).

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Some even get rather personal about the information they request. Then if you approach them with any resistance privately they then go public with some lame apology that they obviously do not even mean
This isn't an argument, this is an attack. You have no place to call someone's apology lame and then turn around and call them disrespectful. I'm sorry, I'm not usually that blunt, but I don't know how else to say that. Two wrongs do not make a right. If you don't like the information a DM has requested, don't apply. If you politely message them and ask them to change it, don't insult their apology for requesting personal information and them saying they don't want to. I just had to look into this.

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On a completely unrelated subject...

To the three individuals who have been protesting, in secret text, PM, and here in the public thread--you know who you are--that the [blanked] game advertisement or application process is unfair, disrespectful, too hard, or makes you feel uneasy because I asked you about things like your age: I cannot apologize profusely enough. I encourage you to find another DM in a different game on this excellent site that will be more to your liking; don't waste another second on applying to this one.

Thank you!
I see nothing wrong with this. A few people expressed issue in private, so the DM made a public statement so they did not have to reply to it however many more times privately. I read irritation in this statement, and while I would have worded it differently, I'd probably have said the same general thing. "If you do not wish to tell me what I am asking for, you are free to apply to another game, I'm sorry, but I'd like to know this information."

(On re-read, his final statement reads more like "If you don't like what I've asked for, then don't waste your time on me, find a DM you like." That's sound advice in general.)

I disagree with asking players for their age, or any personal information in general, for the record. I do not apply to the games that do this. On the other hand, I do not go in and ask the DM to change it because I consider it disrespectful to tell a DM they have to change something about their game entirely for me. And if I did ask, and a DM responded to me in that way, I would nod, say "Fair enough," and move on. There is more I wish to say, but anything else reads as attacking you, not your arguments, so I'm going to move on. If this was not the moment you were speaking of, I'd be glad to see the correct one.

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So the most prevalent abuse of disrespect on this site is of course the status quo application process that most DMs are seemingly encouraged to use by this site to acquire players for a game they wish to run.
DMs are welcome to use whatever application process they desire. Each has upsides and downsides, benefits and pitfalls. I have defended this process, I have also encouraged people to try something different. If you wish to propose a method that is better than the norm, then do so, else it cannot become the norm.

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However before I dig into that let us examine a couple of very important elements.
I wish to flip this on its head.
  • There is no game with out a DM, and a good DM makes for a better game so DMs are just as important as the person playing the game and to some degree, more so, because there are usually less of them.
  • Players on this site are about as dependable to stick it out as the DMs so there is nothing that makes a player overtly special, they are just another person on this site -- equal footing
  • Players would not join a game if they did not enjoy doing so thus the players gets enjoyment out of a game by being a player while the DM get enjoyment out of DMingthe game - basically again equal footing
  • Players are not guaranteed to be good players it is basically pot luck again nothing special here

It works just as well, it's almost like both are equally important yet your conclusion takes shots a DMs... yet not players. Players can most certainly have an "I'm better than you" attitude as well, yet you seem to place blame entirely on the shoulders of the DM, and all DMs at that barring the few words you added above to note "not all DMs," yet this statement pretty much screams "Yes, all DMs." People are the issue, and the bad eggs at that, not DMs, not players, and certainly not most of the people on this site. I loathe toxicity in all forms, I would not have stuck around as long as I have if it was prevalent.

Quite honestly, a DM with a toxic attitude will eventually not be a DM because nobody will play with them. At a certain point, though, it is not the DM placing themselves on a pedestal, but others doing so, and one shouldn't blame the DM for that. There is also a certain point where one can read a certain tone where it doesn't exist. Text is inherently tone deaf, and while there are tricks to add tone to words, ultimately, in some cases, text only has the tone you provide it. If you wish to think all DMs have placed themselves on a pedestal, you are going to read what they say as if they are on that pedestal, when they may not have ever placed themselves there.

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Sadly though most players seem to be blind to this and do not understand just how badly they are being disrespected because it is the accepted norm or status quo promoted by this site.
This is going to come up at some point, it might as well be here. What is disrespectful is entirely subjective. What you find disrespectful, others might not. That does not mean people are blind to it. It could be that people just do not see things the way you do, they do not see this attitude you say most DMs have (I certainly don't beyond a few bad eggs, it is far from the norm), and like me, they likely disagree with you on what is actually disrespectful.

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Let me paint this picture a little bit differently. You apply for a job, and your potential boss looks over your credentials, examines your skills, and then just before he hires you he brings you into a room with all the other applicants and says...
This is a massive stretch and you've made it a very terrible analogy. In fact, by bringing this analogy in, you've pretty much destroyed your entire argment on this point. If you want to use the job analogy, this is far, far more correct.

An employer indicates he has a few job openings available. People seeking a job hand in their resume, applying for the job. The employer looks over all these applications, examines your credentials and skills. They get people who are overqualified, just qualified, and underqualified. All but the latter category would be fine choices, interviews are conducted and people who appear to be a good fit for the position are selected.

A DM indicates he has a game he wishes to run / is seeking players for an existing game. Players seeking a game hand in their character application (their resume). The DM looks over all these applications, examines your credentials (character information) and skills (writing ability, showing interest in the setting and using it in your character, etc). They get people who blow them away, who provide exactly what they asked for, and those who clearly didn't even read the ad. All but the latter category would be fine choices, the DM looks at their mannerisms, pokes around to see if a player has dropped games before (basically the 'interview') and the people who appear to be a good fit for the game are selected.

I see nothing disrespectful there--that seems entirely sensible to me. The rest is personal opinion and assumptions I'm not inclined to get into a debate on, as well as further on a failed analogy.

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Well because you have to understand just how horribly wrong it is to abuse individuals in this manner. Every time this is done and a person does not make the grade (which is a total lie to begin with as there are no grades) they take another hit to their self-esteem. Sure some folks have learned how to cope with this, and some operate in complete denial mode but it happens and on some level it hurts.
This is going to sound callous. A person is not responsible for another person's self-esteem. In no way, shape, or form, are they responsible. Yes, they are at fault if they go out of their way to harm someone's self worth, but that isn't what is happening here. DMs aren't PMing random people and saying their application is terrible (In fact, as stated, most DMs I've seen will say they had a lot of good applications, but there are just only so many people they can accept!) Rejection in general hurts, but it is on the rejected person to deal with that or, if they cannot, do not put themselves in that position (the arguments of that not being healthy aside here--I feel like given this is a hobby, and one of many sites which cater to this hobby, it's far different than your average life scenario involving being rejected). If you put yourself out there with the potential to be rejected, do not place fault in the person who rejected you. This is one of the cases where nobody is at fault. You did nothing wrong by putting yourself out there, they did nothing wrong by not choosing you.

DMs who use the application process are not abusive jerkwads. They are trying to give the maximum amount of people the opportunity to play D&D. I am certain, whatever process you use (unless you use first come, first serve*), some people are rejected. Be it cause they apply with a character that makes no sense for your world, or otherwise. You know what, Aeternis said it better.

* Correction: You automatically reject anyone who wasn't on point to see your ad. The people who cannot check every day thus get frustrated because the games they want fill up too fast.

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Originally Posted by Aeternis, BAD-ASS Applications
If there are a dozen or more applications when judgement day rolls around, it’s possible your application will fail simply because it was good, but there was a large field of good applications. There’s no shame in this sort of failure. GMs tend to try to build the most interesting party dynamic in this case, so they may not pick the “#1 best composed application” if they think the game will be more interesting if they pick other characters instead. Character concept becomes the deciding factor in this instance, specifically, how concepts will interact with each other personally and mechanically.
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As such from that point on I never requested an application, unless I was running a game for a particular purpose or person and then the application is only to make sure the character concept fits within the game design I am already committed to running. Otherwise, my whole criterion for accepting a player is that they show interest in playing the game I am planning on running.
... That is exactly what DMs on this site are doing. If it's okay for you to do it, it is okay for them. If it is not okay for them, it is not okay for you. When DMs post an advertisement, they basically commit to run that game in some sense, so they want to make sure they have character concepts which falls within their game's design. The application process is also a way of players showing interest in a game a DM is planning on running.

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(mostly happens with face-to-face games)
The mediums are so different, arguments trying to equate the two always fall flat. What words in face-to-face or real time, doesn't necessarily work well in play-by-post and vice versa. Making sure characters are balanced and work well with one another is... exactly what DMs using the application process do.

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not improved by making someone jump through hoops and bend over backwards for you prior to accepting them into your game.
Jump through hoops, maybe. Bend over backwards? Not really. Yes, some DMs want you to jump through hoops. I don't think asking for some character details is jumping through hoops, but to each their own. If you don't like what they ask for, do not apply, that is your prerogative as a player. However, in my experience, asking for those details does help in weeding out the less committed players. Someone who has asked me, "Can we start soon?" on the first week is not often around the next week. Will it work all the time flawlessly? No, nothing will but at least you get a better idea of who is really into your world and thus can make a more informed decision on who might stick around.

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Next most of the games on this site are 2-dimensional at best and maybe if the players are really good it develops a more 3-dimensional feel but the key here is not the DM but the players because I have yet to find a DM here that actually works with their players to create that 3rd dimension most seem to want to be spoon fed this when it is their responsibility to create it. In case you are not aware of what I am talking about let me explain.
Time and time again, you are disrespectful yourself. Here you call most of the games on this site 2-dimensional, may I ask how many games on this site you have looked at?
There are hundreds if not thousands, can you definitively say you've looked at enough to claim they are all 2-dimensional? I've never met a DM who looks at something a player created for their world and just said, "Nope, go away," either.

The DMs are creating it. That is what the whole point of the application process is for. They are looking for players who fit with their world, and will often help players by telling them what parts of their character doesn't work with their world.

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Further they are reviewing all the potential player characters (or at least should be but I wonder sometimes about that I mean if they are going to choose to be disrespectful in one way what is to prevent them from being disrespectful in other ways as well) they are considering accepting
This is a gross assumption, once more showing a lack of respect for the people who take time to run these games on this site. DMs will review every single application they get, that alone investing more time than any one player. Some DMs are even happy to tell you what they thought if your application, even before the deadline, if you ask them politely to do so (and give directed questions, like "What doesn't work with your world?" over "Anything I can change?").

The only exception I have seen to a DM refusing to read an application is if they are trying to run, for example, an evil game set in the underdark, and a player applies with a Lawful Good Aasimar Paladin. They will read the others though, they have to, they don't arbitrarily pick people. How can you be arguing that DMs only pick the best applications then imply they don't even review them?

Some DMs don't want to give their thoughts on every single application, this is understandable. It is a huge time commitment to do so--trust me. I've done it three times. It is days worth of just sitting there and responding to people about their applications (and in a lot of cases people have made changes that lead to me accepting them, even). But they do read and review them privately when it comes decision time.

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Thus they are also the one in the best position to suggest ties between the various characters such that when the game starts there are already reasons for all the characters to be working together towards the common short term goals and hopefully to the long term goals as well (this obviously would do away with the cliche meeting of strangers in a tavern that this game is so well known for)
This is usually done after players and characters are selected--the DM would also choose characters who would tend toward a natural affinity toward working together in the first place.

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However this dimension, even if you are lucky enough to make that fictional grade and are accepted into the game, does not usually happen because frankly I do not think many DMs are even aware of it. Either that or why bother with it, as they are much more important than those players who just got done sucking up to them just to play in their game.
I think it's more you are not aware what goes on in every game and are making far too many assumptions to base an argument upon. The final statement is just more attacking, not arguing, and disrespectful.

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Now due to this short coming, when I am a player, I often try to work with other players to set something like this up, because I know how much more fun this makes a game for everyone (including a DM even if they are not aware of it or how to do it themselves). C
Fun is subjective. You do not get to decide what other people find fun: full stop. One could read this argument as "I know better than you what is fun," which is exactly the thing you're accusing DMs of doing. I have also not encountered a DM who has an issue with people tying characters together. I'm sure there are, there always is, but the majority? No.

Also, again, in all the games I've been in, working out the finer details happens once players are selected. Just because you do not see it does not mean it doesn't happen.

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I can guarantee you that if you ask any player, who has played a situation where their character and someone else's character (or more than one) created a meaningful relationship between their characters that the game usually ended up being a lot more fun to play. I
I am a DM and a player. I had a character who I created a meaningful relationship with to another player in one game, and another who didn't in another game. I enjoyed them both just as much. What did I enjoy even more then that? When these meaningful relationships weren't decided when the game started, but instead came naturally over time (I had one of my characters marry another PC in one game after they had spent a year adventuring, I have another character who took on a motherly role to another PC--that was far more fun that if we had decided it ahead of time). Some of these were even on this site.

In essence: what you like is not what others like.

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If you are still not convinced that the current status quo is woefully disrespectful then I challenge you to answer this question honestly. Why would someone have to ask, "If you are willing to allow a newbie in?"
I challenge you to consider that your answer for this question is not the correct, or only one. I invite you to ask dirkoth, or many other DMs, who make it a POINT to always accept one new player into their games. Or to look at the New Player Solo Game program, which is designed exclusively for new people to the site, where we STILL get the question, "Is it okay if I don't know x?" Where it's stated everyone is accepted, always, unless you're someone with like 100s of posts and a few hundred RPXP. (Many DMs from that, myself included, even run games on this site).

But to answer your question. Here's a few.
  • The player doesn't wish to hold the game back with their learning, and is asking to see if it would do that, or are they mistaken?
  • The player thinks the game is out of their league, and is asking if they even have a chance?
  • The player is seeing if the DM is willing to work with them and teach them the game if they are accepted.
  • It's just a random question... people ask them. I've seen experienced seasoned people ask this question ahead of time if a DM has not stated something about it (or stated something unclear about it) in their advertisement.

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To think that anyone would have to "grovel" or even think that it was necessary to do so to just to get accepted into game is so, so very sad.
It was just a question, it was not groveling. Do not insult and disrespect these players by calling their questions groveling.

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Just keep in mind, everyone was a newbie once there is no reason to disrespect someone for that reason -- and do not give that lie that everyone has to pay their dues - that is just rationalization for base behavior.
As noted, dirkoth and may other DMs will make it a point to accept a newbie into their game. They don't even need to grovel, and these DMs will state it right up front. I do not understand how a newbie asking that question equates to the DM disrespecting them. I do not see newbies being disrespected. There is an entire introduction forum with several regulars who go out of their way to even welcome newbies.

At the end of each NPSG as well, we give a questionaire. Some newbies have included in that, that people of this site seem very welcoming. A few newbies I ran through have gone on to become community supporters -- one even a moderator -- because the community was so welcoming (some before I even finished their NPSG). The newbies that scream disrespect are, more often then not, the ones who are being disrespectful in the first place based upon the questionnaires I've read and games I've seen. In some cases, yes, I agree with the newbie (and have stated when I felt something was done wrong), but it isn't often, and isn't often in general this happens.

One newbie I picked up last week is already in one game (he's applied to two), and is on his way to getting into a third. Can you please show me where newbies are being disrespected? Can you please show me where they are being snubbed? Can you show me where someone has said they need to "pay their dues"?

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Oh and I have heard many of those why it is done excuses but frankly I have been doing this for more years than this site has existed and I can guarantee you you that they are all just excuses
One could read this as "I am better than you."

As well, I'm not sure your point. Close knit groups and cliques will not be as accepting as a wider whole. A small number of gamers might be willing to put up with a bad egg due to the short supply, but by no means is that accepting. Also, yes, that's... exactly a fact. As something grows in popularity, more bad eggs will end up in the basket, thus instead of 1 jerk in a group of 10, you've got 10 in a group of 100.

I'll also note. When you go looking for disrespectful things, you will find them, regardless of whether or not they are actually there (I'm not saying it doesn't exist on this site, the point is more you might see what you're looking for where it isn't).

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I would purpose that this status quo be ended and that DMs accepted the first however many players that apply to their game they are looking to have and work with them at building a 3d character or at least accept their 2d or 1d character if that is all the deeper their game is going to be.
I propose DMs advertise as they wish to advertise, and ignore anyone who tries to tell them there is a right way or a wrong way to do it. There is no right way or wrong way, there are just different upsides and downsides.

I left this to here as well. As I stated, play-by-post is a medium for people who cannot check the forum every day. Is it not disrespectful to those people who come to this medium specifically for the slow pace to be told, "too bad, better luck next time" when DMs go with the first however many players they wish to? Because they couldn't check back every single day?

Is it not disrespectful to basically ostracise people who only post 3/week in a medium specifically catering toward slow, asynchronous play? All because they cannot be as fast as other people? In my experience, most games on this site will get 4 interest posts within a day except for niche, rarer systems, or other such things -- Pathfinder, D&D, those will always fill up first day and you basically desire to make it so the people without much time can no longer play those games.

There are far, far more players on this site than DMs. I dare say 10:1 at least. All the great looking games will fill up fast with a first-come, first-serve method, then the good games, then the mediocre-looking ones. Then all people will have left is the bad looking games. Is that not unfair to do to people too? Hell, I don't even like calling games "bad games," because that feels wrong to me, but I need to, or else I can't make my point.

Also, you utterly disrespect players when you say they cannot make characters that are beyond 1-dimensional or 2-dimensional without the aid of the DM, as you do here (and have sort of said elsewhere). Players can, and will, entirely weave their characters into a campaign if the DM does his job, as it were, and provides the information needed to do that. This is a different medium than most, it might not happen in the way you expect, but it happens. I have had this happen to me on so many occasions, I couldn't even tell you them all, where I said "here's the world," and a player hits me with a character that is so well integrated into the setting, there's literally nothing I can say but "you're in."

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Because no one deserves to be disrespected without giving solid reasons for it and even then one should do their best to not crawl into bed with them by stooping to their level. Let us be higher quality people and stop the abuse by stop being disrespectful to one another. It really is not that hard.
Please, practice what you preach.
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:31 AM
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I'm just going to say, thanks Capt Dev for capturing many of my thoughts.
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  #4  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:13 PM
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Cap'n Devonin, thank you for getting to this thread before I got here. I don't think I can add all that much to what's been said, I can only echo some sentiments - but echo them I will. If you stick around to the end, I might even have an original point of my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Devonin
Also, saying someone's condolences is fake, is so utterly, utterly disrespectful. I, and I'm sure many other DMs, when we say, "I'm sorry I couldn't accept more people," we genuinely bloody mean that. There is no gleeful callousness that we tell people to "take a hike and better luck next time."
This, and a lot of "This application could have been the best I got, if only a few little things were addressed."

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Originally Posted by Captain Devonin
A person is not responsible for another person's self-esteem. In no way, shape, or form, are they responsible.
Captain Devonin is very right about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Devonin
Fun is subjective. You do not get to decide what other people find fun: full stop.
...And also this.

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Originally Posted by Captain Devonin
Do not insult and disrespect these players by calling their questions groveling.
And this. Some people prefer to ask forgiveness, some prefer to ask permission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Devonin
I propose DMs advertise as they wish to advertise, and ignore anyone who tries to tell them there is a right way or a wrong way to do it.
The Captain is also absolutely correct about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Devonin
There are far, far more players on this site than DMs. I dare say 10:1 at least.
Also about this, except that you need to remember that people play in a lot of games if they can.

It could effectively be far higher than ten to one. The reason for this is simple - the workload of being a player is a lot lower than the workload of being a GM, and GMs are also players. At my height I was a player in 7 games and GM in 2, not including solo games. I was a GM for 8 players, and I was occupying 7 player slots in other games. Most GMs do dip their toes into the player pool, and most players play in more than one game - sometimes many at a time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeJoker
I would purpose that this status quo be ended and that DMs accepted the first however many players that apply to their game they are looking to have and work with them at building a 3d character or at least accept their 2d or 1d character if that is all the deeper their game is going to be.
Let's translate that into English, because I want to respond to this, and only this, at length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammarized DeJoker
I would propose that this status quo end, and that DMs should accept the first however-many players that apply to their game, then to work with them to build "3D" characters, or at least "2d" or "1D" characters if that is all that is necessary for the game the GM is going to run.
Financially speaking, DeJoker, your proposed rule of first-come, first served may indeed be the swiftest known way to kill RPG Crossing, as it would make it hard for people who have the financial stability of a full-time job to get into games they aren't running. That would inevitably chase Community Supporters away - possibly enough of them to make it impossible to pay the bills.

I also get the sense that what you call disrespect is thing the rest of us refer to as merit. It clearly isn't disrespect, as Cap'n Devonin demonstrates fairly convincingly. Merit is a system by which, as much as can be managed, the work which is of a quality deserving of success receives success, and the work that is of a quality deserving failure receives failure. If you feel that being judged based on a standard of merit is the same as being disrespected, that is not because anyone is disrespecting you. That is because you prefer to place the reason you received failure on an external foe rather than to examine what you could have done better.

Instead of merit, you would substitute timing and/or luck as the measurement by which players are judged. What would happen if the first player to post wanted to play a character who didn't fit the game, and would not accept guidance away from such a path? And what does that say about a GM's freedom to run the game they want to play, if they have to work around the character preferences of what amounts to the five quickest keyboards that day? How is this any more fair or respectful than the standard of merit, even if we're going to assume (which we're not) that merit is an inferior standard?
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Last edited by Aeternis; 09-17-2017 at 09:38 PM.
  #5  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:27 PM
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Thanks for the replies (including the deleted one) it is nice to see where some folks stand on things. To that I am working on my response to Captain Devonin and once I am finished with that I will address Aeternis reply. I still strongly believe your position is wrong but I am outlining that in my reply which I will hopefully finish tonight
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  #6  
Old 09-17-2017, 09:33 PM
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While I can understand you may feel a level of frustration based on some experiences you have had, of which some may be fact and other aspects are perception, as a relative newcomer to this site still (less than a year seems new to me) I have to disagree with a lot of what you have said. I am not entirely sure what event has triggered this for you, and I honestly do feel sorry that you have clearly not found the same level of fun and community that I have.

I have to agree a lot with what Capt Dev has said, and am impressed at the amount of time taken to respond to your concerns and upset. It is people like Capt Dev here that I feel make this place be as welcoming and open to players as it is.

That being said, there are some GM's that I have seen that I have no interest in playing for, it does not mean that they are wrong and I am right, but that our styles and expectations do not match. I personally do not believe my age, gender or employment have anything to do with my ability to write, but there are some people who believe just that. It is not my place nor role to tell them to change, nor is it their place to tell me that I am playing wrong in my own games. In these cases, it merely makes sense that such a game is not the sort I should apply to.

On top of that in reverse, I have witnessed players demand information of GMs that I feel is unneeded as well, and when the GM indicates as such and the player continues to demand, it is also clearly a case where the GM and Player are clearly not meant for the same game. It is not a matter of right and wrong, but a matter of style and form, and having a site with so many options, allows for all of our own quirks and bits to still find a place to play.

As per my signature, I feel I am very active in the community game wise, and am playing in games with some long established members of this site who have welcomed me openly and willingly. I have been turned down for games and been told "Great work, amazing really, hard to pick my players but you didn't make the cut" And while disappointing, I knew that going in it was a game for four players only, and having 10 people apply, and all with amazing apps, I am glad I was not the one that had to choose.

As a player, I have too already outlived two GMs, I expected this and I have also joined a game in which over the many years it has been going, has lost many players while the GM has remained. There is no 'side' that is better, a lot if not all of the GMs are also players, and they have experienced the difficulty of choosing applications as well as making an application and hoping to join a game, and failing to make the cut. You cannot divide it into an 'us' and 'them' as there is no such thing. I personally play CoS with a co-player who is also my GM in MSP, and they are an excellent character to play alongside with as well as a very patient GM, despite my myriad of pestering questions while learning a new system.

I could continue on with how I have met some amazing people here, and how I have met others that came and went, and I am sure are great people, but did not last playing, but it would get ridiculous.

Instead, I want to say that the feeling of frustration can be very real and make one upset, angry or mad, more so when one has created something they are proud of and it is not 'chosen' but it does not mean that you are less of a person or player compared to someone else. Failure on RPGX is much like failure in life, you cannot always get what you want, and sometimes what you want... vanishes (I miss that solo rp, it was epic) but there are chances and opportunities abounding. Patience is required.

As a last thought... please remember that text is text, one cannot and should not ever assume intent to words outside of what is plainly written. If it is not entirely clear, then do ask the intent, but assuming falsehoods, deception or 'humouring' as intent, is judging those you claim are judgmental. To look at the site as a place where it is assumed all things are intended with ill or derision, will remove the chance for fun and enjoyment. In my personal opinion, accepting words as they are, honest, legit and without guile, even if perhaps the person is not being sincere, allows for a better space for yourself personally and if the person is actually being insincere, who are any of us to judge them and lecture them? In the end, the GMs and Players who are able to play well with others and all people, do gather a positive reputation and those who are perhaps cruel, passive aggressive, or otherwise underhanded and nasty, also gathers a reputation, GMs and Players alike.

I firmly believe you can control oneself alone, be it your perceptions, your opinions and your actions. I choose to see the best in RPGX and in truth, in the last few months it has never let me down, the people here, as a majority are amazing people, and while I may not have gotten into some games I really wanted to at the beginning, I cannot and will not complain about the ones I am now a part of, it is an honour to play with my fellow RP-ers, and I will continue to try to add my own positive energy and emotions into the games and this site.



And I know I said last thought, but in parting... if you do see something that seems to be 'grovelling required' or something that is truly offensive, I would say it should be brought to the admin, as such things have no place here.
  #7  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:10 PM
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First: DeJoker, I want to thank you for unleashing your full opinion of the status quo here on RPGCrossing. I don't agree with you on almost any of your points, but disclosing how you feel helps let the rest of us know just how difficult the existing system can feel to some.

Second: Captain Devonin. Oh Captain, my captain! Thank you for your detailed rebuttal. Many of us lack the time and competency to express such an exacting retort in such a brief response window. You did the vast majority of RPGX D/GMs a great service.

Third: for my own part, I'd like to simply state that everyone is different. Judging the whole on any sample size a single individual is likely to have been able to digest is a disservice to that whole. Expressing your own emotional response to the situation is fine, but ascribing attitudes and intentions to others without their input is grossly inappropriate.

I am a GM. I run two games currently, and I used different methods to obtain my players for each. The first used the status quo system to solicit concepts, then I selected players based on more than simple mechanics or which was subjectively better than the others. I took players who I thought would form an interesting group. I seem to have succeeded.

For my second game I solicited mere interest, privately approaching players to sound out their styles and preferences, ultimately picking two core characters that I thought best fit the scenario, followed by two characters I thought would best complement their personalities. These weren't the characters I thought "best". They were the ones I thought made the first two better. I then allowed those four players to select a fifth themselves from a short list of characters I thought further enhanced the experience. This game is young. We'll see how it goes.

Ultimately: I don't think myself better than my players. Heck, one of my players is my GM. I think my investment in preparing material for others is important to me. If my time and planning aren't important to an applicant, I'd rather they look elsewhere. I value my players' time, and so I communicate with them regularly to explain lapses or encourage character development. Without me, there would be no game, so yeah, I'm important to that game.

In Conclusion: I highly recommend Aeternis' BAD-ASS Applications guide. It's brutally honest, but very effective. I recommend communicating with your potential GMs. I recommend networking with people you enjoy interacting with. Build games with them. Make RPGX great. Before you judge another, look at yourself. But above all, don't be afraid to speak up.

Last edited by Ziether; 09-17-2017 at 10:31 PM.
  #8  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:45 PM
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An interesting discussion. As a new player I wanted to share a few of my thoughts.

* I've found the community to be very welcoming and accommodating. Though I have seen elements of some applications that could be construed as condescending or discriminatory .
* A large portion of the enjoyment of a campaign comes from assembling a compatible group of players and GM(s). The GM often bears the most responsibility for assembling this group.
* Text is an imperfect communication medium, especially for conveying emotional context and often the reader supplies their own context which might not match the author's intent.

I can't really comment on the perceived slights during the application process you've experienced, more experienced users than I have provided insight into what I imagine is a very difficult task. Declining an acceptable application must be even tougher, and its easy to assume a negative emotion in these cases where none was intended.

What is more actionable is suggesting remedies to the perceived failings of the application process. In my short time here I've already seen a fair amount of experimentation on this score:

* Accepting some portion of the playgroup by lot and supplementing with a few hand chosen players.
* West march style campaigns that accept every applicant over a certain (quite minimal threshold) and allowing party composition and character development to continue fluidly as the campaign progresses.
* Specific goals to include certain types of players (newbies in particular) in a game.

Ultimately I think players do need to recognize that GMs are the scarcer resource in this community. And though the game is a collaboration between both groups, during the application process just like in the game, we need to play by the GM's rules. The current application process may not be perfect, but its clear that most GMs take the process very seriously and strive to vary and improve their methods.
  #9  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:15 AM
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Interesting if I point out a problem about disrespect in general then the seemingly general argument is that I am being disrespectful myself. Further disrespect is not subjective it is actually quite straight forward it is just that many folks do not seem to understand its fullness. I am sure there are going to be many people that agree with your defense of disrespect by minimalizing its nature.

Next I concur perhaps some of my statements were a bit disrespectful but I tried my best not to bend to down to low when outlining the problem that was and is occurring. That said I will apologize for that.

Now to address your stance and arguments that were very nicely worded to help them sound better and paint things I little less offensive than they really are but then I expected that otherwise the issue would not be the status quo. People often spend a good measure of mental time rationalizing away their bad behavoir becuase they want to feel that they are not a bad person for doing the things they do. Further some become so good at it that they can do it in the mere blink of an eye. Does actually change the behavoir from bad to good -- no -- but it does make them think so and thus they can continue doing it.

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That isn't what they are saying at all, you're twisting things. The DM posts their game advertisement and says: "Hey, I'd like to run this, would anyone be interested in playing?" Rather than take first come, first serve, they leave up for one, two, or even three weeks, in order to give everyone equal opportunity to say, "Hey, I'm interested and this is the character I'd like to play!" (This is a consequence of the medium: people who use play-by-post do so because they don't have the time or ability to do a live group (or just need to get their fix ) and missing out repeatedly because you can't check what's supposed to be a slower medium every single day is just... silly.)
Ah but they do not just say "Hey I'd like to run this, would anyone be interested in playing?" for in most cases, due to the either status quo or a written statement, it is followed up with "Now impress me with your application because I am only going to take the best of the best" which in turn implies "because my game is just that good and so am I" which most times is a straight up lie. Sure maybe the game will be good but it is not so just because of the DM or their campaign its because of the players as well -- yes I fully understand this could be an argument for getting the best of the best but that is generally only needed if the DM themselves is not all that good because frankly most players can measure up to the best of the best if DM is willing to work worth them. In fact I have played in numerous games where players and GMs both worked with newer players to help them be better players but this was back when the online community was not as large as it is today and respect was a much higher commodity. So that being an argument for choosing the best of the best is only such if the DM is choosing to be disrespectful to other gamers. For no matter how subtle it appears or is done, disrespect is still disrespect.

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At the end of that time, obviously they need to decide on a group. If picking the people they think would make a good group for the adventure they have in mind is disrespectful, what metric would you have them use? A coinflip or random draw would be massively, far more disrespectful. That you get from this, "Nah, you're not good enough," is just... you're so massively twisting things, I don't even know where to begin. "I think these four characters would be good for the adventure I have in mind," is a far, far cry from what you're imagining here. If anyone tacks on, "because the rest weren't good enough," to that, it is the fault of that person, not the DM.
Hmmm most interesting argument, it is the fault of the individual being rejected that they feel rejected rather than the fault of the person doing the rejecting. So taking that logic to an extreme to better show how untrue it is we could say it is the fault of the individual subjected to racism that they feel degraded or offended rather than the racist who is doing the degrading or offending. Sounds a lot different does it not but I suppose your defense will be that I horribly twisted it when in fact all I did was extend it to a logical conclusion based on the premise you put forth. The extreme nature is there just to make it more blantantly obvious.

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It doesn't even mean the rest weren't good enough.
Now that is a most interesting comment, and I actually understand your point, but the fact of the matter is that they were not chosen because, "for whatever the reasons were", they were not good enough for that particular game. But the problem is not whether or not the individual was able to craft some great concept, it is the requirement that they had to in order to "win" a position in the game. I mean if everyone were considered "equal" in regards to being accepted, because respect states that in fact they are, then there would be no need for a "contest" to "qualify" for the game. I am guessing that you often win the contests you enter so see no reason why it would be all that bad -- but put yourself in someones shoes that came here and while they are a perfectly good committed role player they, for what ever reason, just could not get into a game (except for the special ones) because they could not craft a noteworthy enough application. Further you probably do not hear from these individuals because they simply leave the forum in frustration feeling a bit worse about themeselves then when they arrived. Now I grant you this is a hypothetical situation but as things are you cannot honestly say it does not happen for the very reasons that I am stating that it does. Conversely knowing enough about human nature I can, with 100% assurity, state that it has happened at least once and probably more times than that. As that is the nature of that beast that is being perpetuated here.

Quote:
Also, saying someone's condolences is fake, is so utterly, utterly disrespectful. I, and I'm sure many other DMs, when we say, "I'm sorry I couldn't accept more people," we genuinely bloody mean that.
Interesting that you chose to take my statement and then not only pull it completely out of context but completely change it to support your position. My statement to remind you was : "Better luck next time." which is nothing close to the phrase you used to point out how disrespectful my statement was. This phrase, that I have literally seen from time to time by DMs, and it was not something I dreamed up nor has it ever been a phrase I have had ever needed to use as I do not run "contests". Further yes I concur there are those on this sight that would truly like to take on more players and cannot but your defense implies, because you did not state otherwise, that all DMs are of this bend which then makes the statement utterly false. Because, as you point out more than once, not everyone is like you or does the things the way you do. So perhaps my intial outline does not apply to you or you feel defensive because in some ways it just might. The question is if it did not apply to then why attack it with the method that you chose. If you never use that phrase (or anything like it) then it was not directed at you but do not defend those that do by applying what you do to them. Further I never said there was any "gleeful callousness" again your injection of your own personal views and equating it to what I said which is no where near the truth. But I grant you it does make you sound good. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

To be absolutely clear since you have been overtly mudding the waters, I have not said that absolutely everyone on this site is being blatantly disrespectful - I am saying those that use this methodology to get players are being disrespectful whether they intend to or even realize it. Is that horrible? Only if once they understand what they are doing (which is the purpose of my post) is disrespectful and then continue to do it is it horrible. Of course they may choose to rationalize it away thus lie to themselves that it is not what they are doing but once know the truth and you choose to turn away from it then from that point forward you are willfully and blantantly doing what it is you have told yourself you are not doing. Just because you choose to ignore it does not make it go away.

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One could read this statement with an "I'm better than you tone," there was no need to say how you've outlasted two DMs and will outlast more. What's more, I'd be interested in seeing which statements a DM have made (names omitted) you think a DM has taken up such an attitude (or the attitude in general you've be getting so far).
Yes one could read just about anything they wanted into just about anything someone else said or wrote but that does not make it true. Thus making your argument invalid. Perhaps you should have asked, if you felt it was not applicable, why I chose to make that statement rather than simply attacking something you obviously did not understand and had to inject your own personal view into so that you could attack the statement thus trying to make your position seem better. So to answer that question that you chose not to ask. I stated that to point out that DMs are no better than the players within the forum so they ought to stop with the "I am better than you" attitude that they project with their "You need to qualify for me before I take you on as a player" as that implies "because I am better than you" Now just because someone does not understand this when they do it does not make it better, wars have been started over individuals accidentally greviously insulting another person because they did not know what they were saying was such an offensive thing but it made it no less offensive. So I am trying to enlighten the community to the fact that this methodolgy is actually quite disrespectful. Granted on the scale of obviousness it is rather low, which is part of the reason I have been using extreme examples to help make it more obvious as to why it is disrepectful. So yes there was a need for that statement but not the one you chose to twist it into (and you are the one claiming I am twisting things... that is the second statement of mine that you have twisted to come up with something you could easily criticize).

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This isn't an argument, this is an attack.
This one goes back to that -- something said in private is made public by a most disrespectful person -- thing that I am talking about and you doing it here is just as disrespectful as when it was done elsewhere. For I did not purposefully point fingers or draw in any other person into my post. However you have chosen to make "personal" and thus make an attack -- but will point out that you did that by being disrespectful. Oh sure folks if they wanted to truly dig into things might have found that reference but I did not state that I was referencing that particular person or that particular situation -- you made that inference.

The truth to this is that DM could have just as easily wrapped a "secret" tag around their message to keep the private conversations private. I mean there was a reason those conversations were posted privately to begin with and the person receiving them should have been respectful of that. But as you have pointed out this individual chose not to be respectful and willfully drug that out into the public venue -- why I can only guess it -- perhaps it was meant to shame the individuals and thus get them (and others) not to post such things in the future? Now if that were the case for why they did that, would that make what they did still okay in your book? The problem we seem to keep running into is that you keep applying your bias to the situation rather than viewing the situation on its own. Was the individual purposefully being disrespectful or unintentionally being disrespectful. Either way it is still being disrespectful and should not have been done and that is what was wrong with that. Which again I will point out is why it was wrong of you to do what you did.

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(On re-read, his final statement reads more like "If you don't like what I've asked for, then don't waste your time on me, find a DM you like." That's sound advice in general.)
Yeah or it could be interpretted as (Please **** off and go **** yourself because I am going to do what I am going to do because I have no respect for other gamers because I am all that.) Again this is "an extreme" example and I am not saying that was the particular persons state of mind but no one but that particular person can truly know what their state of mind was when they posted it - you can only look at what they did and determine whether it was respectful or not -- and taking private conversations public is being disrespectful -- especially when all they had to do was slap a secret tag around that post and they would have communicated it just as effectively and yet continued to be respectful.

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DMs are welcome to use whatever application process they desire. Each has upsides and downsides, benefits and pitfalls. I have defended this process, I have also encouraged people to try something different. If you wish to propose a method that is better than the norm, then do so, else it cannot become the norm.
I have proposed one already and I believe that there are numerous others that could be used that would prove to be respectful, and I can see now why you are being so forceful in your ridicule of my position as you by this statement not only favor the status quo you are a proponent of it. This makes the twisting of my statements that you have been doing much more understandable.

Now if the forum were truly interested in alternate methods because they understand that the status quo is disrespectful I am sure we can come up with a means that adequately address that but right now I do not see that as even being an option since any proposed alternate would most likely meet stern criticism as the status quo is not seen as being a bad thing.

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I wish to flip this on its head.
Bravo but but upside down or backwards my position was and still is a DM is no more important than the players -- we are all gamers and all equal and we should treat each other accordingly. So yes inverted my points are still the same that the DM is no more important than the players. However as you so nicely twisted it (the 3rd twisting of my words) you are saying that (even though I did not) am saying all DMs which is a blatant lie. I purposefully say not all because I mean not all and just because you read into your own personality does not mean it is my viewpoint at all. The reason I chose to put the DM on the hot seat is because the DM is the perpetuating the disrespect and it would make very little sense to invert it if what I am stating is that this disrespect should stop. Next you take this far beyond the statement that was made, and I can only surmize you did this twisting to make your position again seem to be a better one that it truely is.

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I loathe toxicity in all forms, I would not have stuck around as long as I have if it was prevalent.

Quite honestly, a DM with a toxic attitude will eventually not be a DM
Conversely I could as you stated "read this statement with an" intent to threaten but instead I will just address the benign aspect of this statement and say there are levels of toxity. Did know that soda pop (regardless of what kind) is toxic to the body and yet folks drink that stuff every day. Many do not even know that its toxic (the purpose of my post) and yet others do not care that it is toxic but if at least they knew it was toxic then they might choose not to poison themselves. Although in my experience many folks sadly do not even care once they know but then who knows maybe someday down the road they might remember and wise up and choose to stop allowing toxins to enter their system. One can only put the truth out there what others do with it is totally up to them.

I am perfectly aware that text is tone deaf which is why certain status quo methodologies should seriously be re-examined to the message they are putting forth which is the responsibilty of the community as a whole.

Interesting you imply that the reason for this situation is that players put DMs on a pedestal otherwise there would be no need to bring this statement up and while that might be true for some gamers that is definitely not true for all gamers and the only bearing this should have on determining whether something is disrespectful or not is to state that the level of unintended disrespect put forth by anyone should be kept at the smallest level as possible so that should this occur that these individuals are not unintentionally abused by situation that does not need to be. If you are going to state it is the players fault then I will go back to may statement about the racist I made earlier. Taking upon the mantle of DM means you take on the responsibility that goes with it which means it is your responsibility now and if you do not understand that then you out to read things like the "Twenty-One Irrefutable Laws of Leadership by John C Maxwell" or other such books that talk about taking on such a role because yes taking on the mantle of DM is taking on a leadership role it is what it is and you cannot short change that no matter how hard you try.

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What is disrespectful is entirely subjective
Again this goes back to the racist example I used earlier. It is not subjective anymore than being a racist is a subjective matter. Disrespect is disrespect plan and simple. If you choose to rationalize your behavoir then you are choosing to be disrespectful. As a case in point, try telling that statement to a corporate lawyer, there a numerous reason that coporations have to be very careful about being disrepectful and is they often get sued for it even if the person doing it was not doing it intentionally because it is the corporation (or the community)'s responsibility to educate their folks on what is considered disrespectful.

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This is a massive stretch and you've made it a very terrible analogy.
Yes it was intended to be "an extreme" example in order to show more blantantly why it is wrong. Further I disagree it was not a terrible analogy and your extremely watered down version simply does what most folks do when they rationalize something by minimalizing it so that the disrespect is less obvious. Further you obviously do not work in HR yes that might happen in a uptopian environment but is not even close to what happens.

Further your statment of how things are done might be what YOU do but I highly doubt it is what everyone else does nor even a majority of the DMs do and if you actually do all that great now all I can ask is you get rid of the disrespectful part by removing that "contest" part. Your statement that you wanted 4 players and took 10 is great and I realize you are probably not the "norm" when it comes to GMs but that does not change the aspect of the "contest" as being disrespectful in nature.

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The rest is personal opinion and assumptions I'm not inclined to get into a debate on, as well as further on a failed analogy.
Interesting dismissal of everything else because in "your opinion" everything else stated is purely opinion. There is a word for that kind of bad basically untruthful argument but I do not recall it off the top of my head. Not surprise to see it though.

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A person is not responsible for another person's self-esteem.
Now I never said that someone else is "responsible" for someone else's self-esteem, I was pointing out that when dealing individuals that already struggle with the issue you should take that into account. I presented this so that everyone has a better understanding of what they are dealing with and why this kind of disrespect can be so destructful in this kind of setting. The key here is if the methodology of a "contest" was eliminated and a fairer may friendly method was implemented then the issue of disrespect would not be as big of a concern. Your statment that this community is different than any other community and thus plays by a different set of rules is really blind of you. People are people they are pretty much the same no matter what the setting discounting them for any reason is wrong. Other than that I will refer you back to my racist analogy for why it is wrong.

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DMs who use the application process are not abusive jerkwads.
I do not recall calling anyone a name let alone an abusive jerkwad. You really should quit injecting your personal views into my statements. Further your secondary statement while true of some DMs is not necessarily true of all DMs and yet your statement implies "ALL" DMs. Precisely you are completely unaware of my process because I do use First Come, First Serve and try to take on as many players as I can. Not all stick around but that is something I have kind of grown accustomed too but a contest process does not improve that in anyway shape or form. I have also stated that sometimes (due to the situation) I do have stipulations on what kind of character will be accepted but I still do not run a contest on who is able to do the best back flip because that has no bearing on accepting an individual for who they are and welcoming them into a game.

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Correction: You automatically reject anyone who wasn't on point to see your ad. The people who cannot check every day thus get frustrated because the games they want fill up too fast.
This is partially a false statement twisted in a manner to make it seem awful. Nice you are very good at twisting things I can see why you feel others do as well. But to address this straight up. I open a game, I accept players as they come. If I have room for more or am okay with starting another game I do so in order to bring more applicants into the game. I do not tell folks that they do not qualify for the game and thus I do not reject them. In fact I often go back to them and bring them in because invariably you lose someeone. Further on this site I can happily say that I have not had to say no to anyone permanently and everyone that has applied to one of my games was accepted either initially or eventually.

So does this mean games fill up to fast for everyone to get into maybe they do but that is pure conjecture although perhaps it has some basis in truth as I have seen this happen before. And yes I agree that aspect can be frustrating, but at least it is not being willfully disrespectful to other players. Now if we were to take your logic that you present to its ultimate conclusion what you are saying by this statement is: It is better to be disrespectful to some people so that all people can participate in a contest to get into a game than it is to not be disrespectful to anyone and have some people be frustrated that they missed out on getting into a game. And I am saying no it is not better to be disrespectful to anyone, it is better to encourage more players to be DMs and teach them how if they are not good at it. Which is to say focus on creating more games up and running than focussing on being disrespectful.

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That is exactly what DMs on this site are doing.
No is is not and that statement is an outright bold-faced lie. Running a contest to get a few players is woefully different than what I was describing. First off I do not run a contest, it is still first in first accepted. If I denote criterion up front about what the game is looking for in a character then that is just so that players do not apply with something they will have to immediately change. (For Instance your example of someone running an evil campaign and having someone apply with the most good aligned character that they could design). In other words I am trying to help them not waste their time in creating something that would not fit into the game. But again, it is not a contest to see who can make the best concept, it is just an upfront statement of what the game requires and nothing more. If every DM did this, there would be no reason for my post but it is in fact NOT what they are doing they are instead running a contest and making players jump through hoops in order to get into their game. The former is a respectful approach the latter is a disrespectful one.

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The mediums are so different, arguments trying to equate the two always fall flat.
And if looked at that closely you would find that the comment about a face-to-face game is not part of the argument but just a qualifier on an aspect of the process that works in face-to-face mostly since I am fully aware that they are two different mediums.

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Making sure characters are balanced and work well with one another is... exactly what DMs using the application process do.
Wrong running a contest to see who can make the most awesome character concept has nothing to do with making sure characters are balanced and will work well with one another as a contest is completely unnecessary for the balance and melding of character concepts to take place. I know because I have done it more times than I can even remember both in PbP settings as well as in face-to-face ones and never I have restorted to a contest to see who can make the best character concept. I am sure that none of you would sit down at a table with a group of friends and say okay I am only to run this game with characters you make that wow me so get started. Oh but you will say you cannot compare face-to-face with PbP but in this case I think you can. You would not do that in a face-to-face because dang that would be disrespectful now would it not? However, introduce the anonimity of the internet and suddenly it is no longer something that is disrespectful. Now how it that? It is a similar the psychological concept to why some folks will act completely different personality wise when driving a car than they would if they were not in the car.

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Jump through hoops, maybe. Bend over backwards?
Really you are going to acknowledge half of the concept but not the whole of the concept. There is no equatable difference between the concept of making someone jump through hoops versus making them bend over backwards. The whole concept, since you seemed to miss it, is that they are requesting far to much for the purpose of what they are needing to do and because that they are being rather disrespectful.

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If you don't like what they ask for, do not apply, that is your prerogative as a player.
Which implies but do not speak out against such disrespectful behavoir as that is not your prerogative as a player. You should quietly sit back and take the abuse that is being divvied out like all the other good little gamers.

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and thus can make a more informed decision on who might stick around.
Nice claim but totally false. The measure of how long someone will be committed to a game has nothing to do with their ability to create a better concept post than someone else. I have even come across players, in my years of online gaming, that all they are really into is making characters concept and winning the contests and not really interested in playing (odd individuals in my book but to each their own). And yeah, so you do not have to point it out, they would eventually get found out due to their dropping out of enough games but then they just move to another forum or create a new account and start all over again. So your claim holds no water and sure they are definitely the exception to the rule but they exist non-the-less. So while you can say that makes you more informed about that aspect of the game in reality it does not.

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can you definitively say you've looked at enough to claim they are all 2-dimensional?
Interesting my statement of most is quickly twisted into an ALL nice try. As for looking at enough games to make that claim, yes I have but then again more importantly since you are the one making this claim have you looked at enough games to prove that my claim is false? I am going guess no and that you simply posted this argument to try and discredit my statement without any basis in fact.

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I've never met a DM who looks at something a player created for their world and just said, "Nope, go away," either.
Really but this happens all the time with these contests, someone spends several hours creating a concept for the DMs world and they say sorry you did not make the cut. Which basically equates to - Nope, go away I have no use for you. Is that to harsh for you let me sugar coat it so you can feel better about it, they probably say something more like (that is if they say anything at all because many do not beyond sorry all done), NopeNice post really like what you put into, wanted to take it but the others were just that much better. Go awayKeep it up I am sure someone will pick you up as a player. I hope that makes it easier to see how that works.

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will often help players by telling them what parts of their character doesn't work with their world.
The point of this (when it is done at all) is to accept them into the game to make the rebuke easier to take. What I have been saying that the rebuke is completely unnecessary take the player on and then help them with their concept to help it meld into the world/campaign that is going to be hopefully run.

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This is a gross assumption, once more showing a lack of respect for the people
Which part the of my statement? The part that says "Further they are reviewing all the potential player characters they are considering accepting" or the interior wondering that said "or at least should be but I wonder sometimes about that I mean if they are going to choose to be disrespectful in one way what is to prevent them from being disrespectful in other ways as well". If the former good to know you wonder too, if the latter did you miss the part that I put in red for you. Wondering about something is not an assumption, and in fact it is not a fact about anything. It is simply a statement that says sometimes I am not sure if they do this or not. Which by definition cannot be an assumption nor can it be disrespectful because I know what I sometimes think and just because that might throw a shadow over your view of things it does not make it what you claim it to be. You really need quit twisting my words to prove your point.

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DMs will review every single application they get,
Says you!! My gosh that one is just the most ludicrous claim you have made yet. You have absolutely now way to prove that let alone substantiate it in way shape or form. For just because you may do it and others "say" they do it does not make the case that ALL do it by any stretch of the imagination. Now your second claim that some DMs will give feedback is definitely true but then again some will not even if they are nicely asked. So not sure how that makes your position any stronger or mine any weaker or address the issue of disrespect. What I find even more laughable is you follow up this claim of "will review every single application" with the statement "The only exception I have seen" which in and of itself proves your claim to be false. Sure that reason why makes sense but it contradicts your initial claim and opens the door that you might actually be wrong and that not every single application gets reviewed.

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They will read the others though, they have to,
Who says? Is there some kind forum police that enforces this rule that I have never heard about. Or are you making a gross assumption that this is how things are because that is how you feel they ought to be?

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It is a huge time commitment to do so--trust me.
Trust you, why? I do not need to trust you on this because frankly I know it first hand, because I do this with every character that a player submits to one of my games. To me it is part of the responsibility you take on as a GM but I grant you there are those that do not fully accept the mantle of GM and settle for just being a DM and that is fine nothing wrong with that if they outline that up front but most do not and the assumption is they are taking on all the responsibilities.

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But they do read and review them privately when it comes decision time.
Again that gross assumption thing you talked about earlier. Okay while you can say that it does not make it true. For fact is any claim that states that everyone that accepts the mantle is doing everything that they should be doing would be falseb because as we both know that it may not be true because people are different and do things differently (you acknowledge that latter part earlier). There easily could be a DM out there that only reviews half the applications they get and then stops because they have found what they wanted. Then turns around and says you all had awesome concepts but I could take only so many. When the truth is they have no clue if the rest of those posts were any good or not because they never even looked at them but they made the statement and of course no one questions its validity. I mean who would? Which is why I wonder about it sometimes. Now before you go off and make that claim that all DMs do not do this -- be sure you can back that with 100% irrefutable fact. I can make this claim because it is a solid possibility and I am not applying to all the DMs on this site.

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This is usually done after players and characters are selected
Another [say]gross assumption[/b] by you, as you are assuming that most DMs do this and in my experience over the many years of PbP this is in fact not the case. Most do not do this. Sure there may be a few on this site that do it and that is great but I am going to base my statement off my many years of experience with PbP in saying that it is the exception and not the rule. Curiousity how many years of PbP experience are you truthfully basing your assumptions on?

[qote]I think it's more you are not aware what goes on in every game... The final statement is just more attacking, not arguing, and disrespectful.[/quote]

You have absolutely no clue what I base that statement off of do you? Your rebuttal surely says that you do not and worse you again go about twisting my words, I did not say every game now did I? Next you make an assumption and then accuse me of making an assumption. BTW you should fully understand this This is where an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.argumentum ad hominem fallacy as you are using it far to often. My claim that it "does not usually happen" is quite true your rebuttal is not. My statement "I do not think many DMs are even aware of it" is also quite true mainly because it is an opinion. Now you claim it is an attack, making the claim that someone might not know something is not an attack it is just a stated opinion. Did I say there were bad for not knowing that, no I did not because frankly they are not being bad they just do not know. Then you claim that I am being disrespectful with that statement, most interesting since you are now calling me the kettle should I call you the pot? Your false accusation is most disrespectful but I am sure you are comfortable with that. Now to help you out, no stating that John does not know math, is not being disrespectful. Even if John was claiming to be ameteur mathmetician because if it is true it is truth and unless said in an accusational manner which the premise of "I do not think" means it is not accusational just a matter-of-fact statement. Now I base that statement on the fact that almost everyone that I have met in the PbP environment over my many many years of experience have never heard about this. So I feel pretty safe in saying that it exists here as well since I have already encountered it here as well in more than one instance.

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Fun is subjective. You do not get to decide what other people find fun: full stop.
Oh but you do? And yes you can can read into my statements a whole lot of things (as you have already proven more than once) and you can twist my words to make you sound better (as you have proven more than once) but then again we get back to that ad hominem fallacy rather than addressing the issue. Next where did I accuse a DM of "I know better than you what is fun" that is nowhere in my post stated or inferred the only person that has come close to this is you on more than one occasion. Next I do not think I mention any DMs having an issue with tying characters together so I am not even sure why you mentioned other than to perhaps muddy waters yet again. I love your absolute gross assumptive claims, when you are constantly acting my statements with your counter of you could not possible know that?

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working out the finer details happens once players are selected. Just because you do not see it does not mean it doesn't happen.
And just because every game you have been in you have experienced something that might be what I was outlining, which is hard to say as you are most vague on that, does not mean that my statement does not happen.

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What did I enjoy even more then that? When these meaningful relationships weren't decided when the game started, but instead came naturally over time
Interesting so you did enjoy having a meaningful relationship within a game more than you did just playing a character without one. Proves my claim that you are rebutting. Then you go on and make a claim that you seemingy could not make because from all that you have stated you have never done it. How do you know it would not have been just as much fun if it had been outlined in some way before hand? You are only stating your opinion that you feel that it would not have been but that you really do not know one way or the other. That comment makes no sense other than to say yes, having a character with a meaningful relationship with anothers PC is more fun.

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I challenge you to consider that your answer for this question is not the correct, or only one.
Oh believe me I have considered every comment that I made before I make. Yes there could be other reasons I did not say there could not be but my premise is based on the issue that the atmosphere to be a player is a contest that you have to win at if you want to play in a game. The logical conclusion to this is you need to make comments to your inadequacy up front before wasting your time diving in because you may get disqualified before you are even considered.

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The player thinks the game is out of their league, and is asking if they even have a chance?
This is actually one of my points, no game is out of anyone's "league" if everyone is being respectful of one another because to out of their league is to imply that they are an inferior player which is turn the direct consequence of contest run application processes. Note that covers item 1 and 3 as well since they are all based off the same premise. The 2nd one just stated it more clearly.

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It's just a random question...
People do not make those kind of random questions, ask any psychologist. Now they may have convinced themselves it is a random question but the question derived from something they have interalized and feel that now it needs to be expressed in order to protect themselves from perhaps... rejection? It would take someone highly skilled to probably root out the core cause, but I can sure make a guess based on the context and probably not be to far from the mark.

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Do not insult and disrespect these players by calling their questions groveling
You are alright with them feeling they need to ask the question but you despise it being called what it is. Is calling the question a form of groveling disrespectful to the person asking the question. No it is not but I am sure you would like it to be such otherwise you would not have made your claim that it is. To help you below is the definition of the word Grovel.

Grovel : To act (or in this case post a question) in a manner that shows a strong willingness to please another in order to obtain that someone's favor

Now tell me that was not the purpose of that question. Next is it a bad thing grovel, in today's society I am sure it has very bad connotations but the fact is you are really just humbling yourself which is actually a good thing. However to create an atmosphere where individuals feel they must humble themselves in order to get accepted into a game is not a good atmosphere. Humility is fine, forced humility is not. Oh yes that is right if they do not like it they can go elsewhere is that not what you said earlier and you are so concerned about me disrespecting someone.

Also The appeal to hypocrisy is an informal logical fallacy that intends to discredit the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently in accordance with its conclusion(s) aka you answered criticism with criticismTu quoque fallacy you have been using this one a lot as well even though the basis of your claims of hypocrisy are false you do this far to often.

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As noted, dirkoth and many other DMs will make it a point to accept a newbie into their game.
Great but where was this noted? I did not see a notice for this, did every newbie that comes on this forum see this notice that you speak of? As for accepting newbies into a game again great, I do this as well but then I do not have a contest so it is even more likely that I might accept more than one into my game. Further I even sometimes make it a point to go out hunting in the players seeking forum to see if their are any newbies that would like to play in a game that have not had a chance to get into a game because they cannot win one of these disrespectful contests.

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Can you please show me where newbies are being disrespected?
I do not have to you have already seen at least one case per your own statement.

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In some cases, yes, I agree with the newbie (and have stated when I felt something was done wrong),
But you are seemingly shifting the subject away from the true issue so I will pull you back. The whole issue outlined here has been that the contest oriented game application process is disrespectful to gamers in general and even more so to newbies. Sure there are success stories and they are wonderful to toted out in situations like this to fallacy justify ones position but the questions it screams is for everyone of these success stories how many miserable failures have occurred. You cannot say because you most likely do not track that. So let me ask this of the number of people that have joined this forum how many have left and/or are now inactive. I think that number might give you some idea of how many failures have occurred. Yes I am sure not all of them are due to failures of this sort but you cannot say how many are and are not. So we have to look at the number as a whole and say some of those were failures and we caused them do to your inadvertent disrespectful practices.

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One could read this as "I am better than you."
There you go again with that ad hominem fallacy and by injecting your personal view on something and twisting the words rather than addressing what was actually said. Yeah you have shown you are very good at reading non-existent things into something someone else has said but that makes no case for you just shows your disrespect of someone else point of view.

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small number of gamers might be willing to put up with a bad egg due to the short supply, but by no means is that accepting
Now who is making a gross assumption of how things were. Is it a fact, were you actually there to see it? Sure the general principle you estow is a fact but the application I do not think you were even born back then and things in society have change a lot over the years both good and bad. But I was there and every group that I was in we did not just "put up" with a bad egg we accepted that bad egg and did what we could to help them be better. Strangely though that being accepted for who they were often seemed to fix that bad egg issue almost immediately. Hey did you know that is a fact to that you truly accept folks for who they are they often stop being bad eggs well at least with those that accept unconditionally. So you have your truth and I have mine and when we combine the two we get something like this maybe -- As a community grows, it becomes less accepting of others for who they are, and thus instead of having 1 jerk in 10, you get 20 jerks in a group of 100. Which I think if you check with psychologists and sociologist that this is in fact quite true but most likely worded differently in some way.

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I'll also note. When you go looking for disrespectful things, you will find them, regardless of whether or not they are actually there
And conversely the more you turn a blind eye to disrespectful things, the less you will notice them regardless if they are actually there. I am not saying the disrespect is blantantly obvious, the point is the less you are aware of the less you might see what you care not to look for. I think you called that inversion and I think it is more true than the one you put forth as it is more in line with human nature. Yeah from what you have been saying your more inclined to believe that people are inherently good, when we are not and the evidence to that is proponderous so you might not want to go there.

[quote]There is no right way or wrong way, there are just different upsides and downsides.[quote]

Right and you would be willing to say that to the face of someone who had been subject to racism? Not.

Quote:
"too bad, better luck next time" when DMs go with the first however many players
The likelihood of that statement being made by a first come as you are DM is dwarfed in comparison to the number of times and to the number of people it is said to in the contest oriented application process. Further it is straight forward and fair. We even have a forum where players can post that are seeking a game in case the above does happen which gets hardly used, in my opinion, because DMs do not check because that individual has not posted to their contest.

Quote:
Is it not disrespectful to basically ostracise people who only post 3/week
Ah another gross assumption, okay I will might yes if you are actually ostracising them it would be disrespectful but the fact is they are would not be ostracise and they would not be disrespected. But let us take that statement and use your inversion pricipal because by doing so you seem to be saying that it is okay to disrespect and ostracise individuals who cannot create a character concept that can win one of these disrespectful contests. Is that your view point, if no then why post a statement that infers that?

Quote:
because that feels wrong to me, but I need to, or else I can't make my point
I would agree that you need to do that to make your point, and that I do not need to to make mine. Personally there are no bad games just bad DMs and bad players. Of course if the DM starts off being disrespectful to the players it does kind of beg the question are there really any good DMs? Now before you fly off the handle and say that I am saying every DM on this site is a bad DM -- I am clealy stating right here and right now that is not what I said. So no need to read into it anything else. It is just meant as a philosophical concept that one should ponder, kind of like what is the sound of one hand clapping, or if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it does it still make a sound?

Quote:
Also, you utterly disrespect players when you say they cannot make characters that are beyond 1-dimensional or 2-dimensional without the aid of the DM, as you do here
Balderdash that is your worst lie yet. The fact is that it is utterly impossible to know what is in someone else head about what their world is and their campaign will be. Oh sure you can can make some deattached stab at it or if you have a vast plethora of material like say the Forgotten Realms you could even weave them into the world on your own but the campaign is in the DMs head. You are only lying if you say you can weave your character fully into the campaign and I would even challenge you to do so. I would be willing to go out and pick a posted game contest and using its outline create a world and a campaign idea and then have you post a character that must be flawlessly woven into that design such that I say you hit the nail on the head. I am betting you will not take me up on that by denoting some excuse or not accepting the challenge at all.

Quote:
if the DM does his job, as it were,
Yes and I defined the job of a DM as helping players make that 3rd dimension because only they know for sure what their world and their campaign is going to be all about. So there is absolutely no disrespect because frankly I outlined the principle of what I was basing that statement on before I made it. And you chose to conveneintly leave that out of your rebuttal. Strangely though you do not outline what you mean by the DM doing their job thus giving excessive latitude in making over-the-top and might I say perposterous claim. But unless you actually get down to outlining the brass tacks of what you mean by DM does their job (as I did) there is no way to know.

Quote:
and a player hits me with a character that is so well integrated into the setting, there's literally nothing I can say but "you're in."
Well I guess you were either pretty easily read by that person(s) or they were just down right lucky. I would probably guess the former rather than the latter but who knows. Further just because this has happened to you a few times and you were surprised by it all I can say is awesome but that is also most likely the great exception rather than the more common rule of thumb. So let me ask how many characters have people submitted for one of your contest that missed the mark? Note I have had this happen before as well, but it has been a lot more rare than someone posting something that horribly misses the mark which I am going to guess is similar for you and/or will be someday if you stick with this long enough -- assuming we are talking the same situation that I outlined rather than some false rendition that you feel matches it in someway and considering your excessive number of misreads I would venture to guess it a false rendition but then I cannot say for sure just a guess.

Quote:
Please, practice what you preach.
Please practice what you defend or are seeming to defend. You claim to be respectful of others but woefully have disrespected on numerous occasion within your rebuttal. So I ask how can you defend it if you do not seem to fully understand it?

Again I will respectfully address each rebuttal as time permits, I have made offline copies so that I have what was originally posted and I will be addressing that. If you choose to make changes I may not catch them unless you inform me of them in a subsequent post. I almost missed some of a few of Captain Devonin's changes and may have missed others if they were made after my last copy of their post, cannot say. So if there is something in Captain Devonin's post that I did not address it is most likely due to a change made after the fact.

Oh and I am going to assume that the person that deleted their post is not wanting a reponse to it.

Note : I knew this would be a long an arduous task based on the sampling of voices I have heard related to this subject prior to posting my original message but let me assure you that I am as committed to seeing this through as I am to being GM and/or a player on this site. Oh and even though I do not post that oath of sangus (or whatever it is called) I have abided by what it says probably longer than it has existed so saw no need to take the label. Oh.. and no I do not feel that this makes me a better person than anyone that has taken it or not taken it, just explaining my personal preference.
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Last edited by DeJoker; 09-18-2017 at 01:25 AM.
  #10  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:51 AM
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Hi, I'm curious as to what the problem is here. Is DMs wanting to have a good, solid game with interesting characters really them being arrogant?

Last edited by Muggins; 09-18-2017 at 02:23 AM.
  #11  
Old 09-18-2017, 02:23 AM
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DeJoker, looking into your post history, it seems that these concerns largely stem from a misunderstanding. See, most games on these forums don't accept players, they accept characters, as the aim of most DMs is to tell a story (first and foremost; the system being used, such as DnD 5e, is merely used as a framework). This is a deliberate choice. The lack of feedback you've received for your applications is unfortunate, but there are channels you can take (such as the Player Support subforum) to improve your writing abilities if you feel yourself struggling. Take care!
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Old 09-18-2017, 03:05 AM
Ziether Ziether is offline
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Final ThoughtsI propose that before this goes any further off the tracks, we lay down new rails and hammer them into place. Those rails are called definitions, and they're useful for terms that seem to be used incorrectly. The key term I see in this thread is "disrespect".

TERMSdis·re·spect: /ˌdisrəˈspekt/
noun: lack of respect or courtesy.


To truly define disrespect, we must delve deeper and understand its opposite. We hack off the “dis” prefix to create a positive term dubbed "respect".

R-E-S-P-E-C-Tre·spect: /rəˈspekt/
noun: due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others.


To paraphrase my layman’s Google Search results, the claim is that GMs lack due regard for either the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of potential players by setting up criteria by which they choose to evaluate interested parties.

I will examine. Setting up criteria explicitly states to persons who have heretofore invested mere seconds of their lives in reading an advertisement the things that the hopeful GM finds important. In those criteria, a GM attempts to devise a sieve with which to divide players who are a good fit (stylistically, linguistically, availability, attitude, sense of humor, etc) for their vision of the game. They exhibit regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, or traditions of others by telling these people that they have a system in place. If persons don't find that system satisfactory, they are more than welcome, nay encouraged, to look elsewhere. Elsewhere might mean another ad. Elsewhere might mean Players Seeking Games. Elsewhere might mean at a physical table at a Friendly Local Game Store near them. Not every game, and not every game medium is for everybody, and a GM respects the community enough to establish their procedure and stick to it.

I get your frustration with time investment. I swear I do. Not everyone has the time to pour into creating a deep character concept only to have five others make something that steps on its toes and shunts it aside at selection time. I've been there. I've been on both sides of the shunting, and I've had to make calls between similar offerings. It's tough. That said, the community has tried all kinds of methods. I've seen at least a half dozen. This isn't a tabletop, as much as we play games that share names with those played in some dude's dining room. Many of us are thousands of miles apart. We work different schedules. We aren't real friends. We can't grab X number of players and assume things will work out. Doing so is liable to end with just as much disaster as the current system, if not more.

I beg of you: consider what Play-by-Post gaming is. Participate in discussion of the site’s culture without immediately jumping to charged statements and emotional responses. Take time to at least understand the point of view of those you are currently accusing of unconscionable deeds. If you want to foster change, do so without a blitzkrieg against the establishment. You'll get more of what you're looking for with positive, uplifting ideas than words of outright condemnation.

I'm going to remove my subscription to this thread now before it devolves any further. I hold no ill-will against anyone involved here. If you wish to participate in earnest communication on the subject, feel free to send me a Private Message.


Regards,
Ziether
  #13  
Old 09-18-2017, 08:30 AM
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If anything seems disjointed, it is because I gutted most of this reply. I had gone through and responded to much more, but it made it unnecessarily long, so I trimmed it to what I felt were key points and saved the original elsewhere. Spoilered for length, this thread is getting silly long. I am not certain I will be responding further, I think I may just leave it for others just due to the time involved and in part, due to something Zeither said above..

 
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Last edited by Captain Devonin; 09-18-2017 at 08:49 AM.
  #14  
Old 09-18-2017, 09:43 AM
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Well I was too slow for what I intended, but I'd still like to throw out some suggestions for the inevitable scathing response to follow. I will provide these free of context for the moment because good heavens going back and quoting each time one of these fallacies was used would take hours. I'd simply like to point out the biggest issues I see here. Speak a little book-sense into why everyone is feeling uncomfortable with this discussion, as it were.

Argumentum Ad Hominem - This one has been bothering me the most. An argument attacking the character or motives of the person involved in the debate, rather than the presented ideas themselves. It is always bad form to use this fallacy, and particularly confounding in a debate specifically about respect. You do yourself and your argument a great disservice by making assumptions and attacks about the opposition.

Tu Quoque - This is the fallacy of defending an error in one's reasoning by pointing out that one's opponent has made the same error. An error is still an error, regardless of how many people make it.

Argumentum Ad Logicam - I'm afraid Mr. Joker really loves this one, as it has taken the form of a circular argument, a slippery slope argument, and several straw man arguments. To put it simply since there are so many different instances, this is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. In debate, strategic use of a straw man can be very effective. A carefully constructed straw man can sometimes entice an unsuspecting opponent into defending a silly argument that she would not have tried to defend otherwise. But this strategy only works if the straw man is not too different from the arguments your opponent has actually made, because a really outrageous straw man will be recognized as just that. Outside of a debate game however, like say, when trying to convince people to actually change a moderation system, it's pretty disrespectful to try to trick the audience into thinking the argument is something it's not. In short: extreme examples are not helpful to your argument.

Argumentum Ad Numerum/Populum - This fallacy is the attempt to prove something by showing how many people think that it's true. But no matter how many people believe something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or right. And by extension:
Dicto Simpliciter - This is the fallacy of making a sweeping statement and expecting it to be true of every specific case -- in other words, stereotyping.

Argumentum Ad Misericordiam - One might say the very core of Mr. Joker's argument, an appeal to pity. The problem with such an argument is that no amount of special pleading can make the impossible possible, the false true, the expensive costless. It is, of course, perfectly legitimate to point out the severity of a problem as part of the justification for adopting a proposed solution. The fallacy comes in when other aspects of the proposed solution (such as whether it is possible, how much it costs, who else might be harmed by adopting the policy) are ignored or responded to only with more impassioned pleas.
  #15  
Old 09-18-2017, 01:59 PM
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DeJoker, I have to ask here. How do you think DMs should select players? Do you think they should all run multiple parties in parallel, for everyone, or expand their party? You have an opinion on how it's done currently, how would you like to see it changed? Be specific.
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