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  #1  
Old 04-28-2020, 09:14 AM
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Would you pay to play in a virtual tabletop game?

Maybe this has been discussed before, but I can't find it. I've been considering what it would take to be a paid, virtual DM. I don't need the money, not looking to get rich, but in this time of home isolation, tabletop gamers may be looking for a consistent online tabletop experience. My wife teaches yoga via zoom and people are happy to pay her. Why not DND as a service?

Many of us here pay for CS memberships to signify our commitment. Paying to play in a group could serve in the same way. Besides, you get what you pay for.

I'd be interested in whether anyone has experience in this (I found a few people already trying to do this online), and what you feel would be needed to make it work.

I should also say I'm not proposing this would be affiliated in any way with RPGX.
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:11 AM
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Not sure why, but every time this comes up in my gaming circles everyone trips all over themselves to say that paid GMing is the devil and the worst thing to ever happen in the history of table top.

Me? I'm all for it! Every con I've ever been to has had a charge. All the LGS around here charge a small fee. People have always paid for entertainment as long as money has been around. I also feel that having a little "skin in the game" helps with attendance and keeps people more focused. They're less likely to be dual screening Facebook if they've paid for this!

My advice is just to make sure you bring your A game and make expectations known early. I've also seen plenty of games offer a free first session to make sure it's a good fit for everyone!

Good luck chummer!
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:56 AM
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I would not pay a DM to play in their game in any format. Friendship/fellowship is one of the main reasons I play RPGs and I personally would find that aspect greatly diminished if I was paying the DM. Keep in mind, pitching in for the cost of an AP or refreshments and whatnot is NOT paying the DM, it's sharing the financial cost of the experience. DMing itself takes up valuable time, but I think it should be a labor of love.

Also, I recall in the 1980s, TSR strongly discouraged the practice on legal grounds. I forget the precise arguments for this, but I know when my wife teaches parenting and baby/toddler classes, she has to pay the people who made the curriculum.
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffdove View Post
Also, I recall in the 1980s, TSR strongly discouraged the practice on legal grounds. I forget the precise arguments for this, but I know when my wife teaches parenting and baby/toddler classes, she has to pay the people who made the curriculum.
As roll 20 offers/advertises/encourages paid DMimg, as well as the previously mentioned massive gaming conventions charging for GMs, I have to assume this legal hurdle has been handled as some point int the last forty years.

I'll also say that a good search for "Legality of paid DMing" returned absolutely nothing on the first two pages that it wasn't against any laws copyright or otherwise.

Though you might want to be careful of running a foul of this site's off site gaming rules.
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:51 AM
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I mean, if there is a market...

First off, I see nothing at all wrong with paying to be in a group. Is it for everyone? Absolutely not. However, there are some situations I can imagine that would make it a really viable option in someone's eyes.

The first of these situations is simple - a lack of other opportunities. Whether you grew up in a rural area and there are no other gamers you know of, or you know of games but none of them fit your schedule, online is a great way around those problems. This issue can be solved without paying. See my next point.

"Skin in the Game" is a great argument for a Pay to Play model. You're going to prioritize it when scheduling other things, and so will the people you are playing with. Everyone will be coming to play, and will minimize distractions accordingly.

Payments could even be a useful barrier to entry; either weeding people out or forcing them to commit if they are on the fence. No better way to make sure you follow through with something than by paying for it.

This could also be a viable option for people that have suffered a string of negative game experiences, whether that's poor games, unreliable scheduling, or their previous experiences just not living up to their expectations. Assuming the DM is of a high enough quality to charge for a game, this should all be taken care of.

To Ruff's point, in my own experience, paying for a service doesn't actually detract from the social enjoyment and friendship that comes out of it. I think the knowledge that everyone is in it for the long hall could actually improve the opportunity of friendship and fellowship.

I'm not saying I would do it, or even that it's an economically sound idea... But I can understand the thought process behind it.
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:56 AM
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If my financial contribution would enable the GM to provide game-related content or accessories or planning that they could not otherwise provide, I'd be willing to entertain the idea of paying a GM. I have no interest in "professional" GMs, because my focus in gaming is the camaraderie and interplay of a group focused on more than just having the best-prepared game available. I want my GM to be as much a part of the gaming group as any player, if not more so.

So no, I'm not going to pay for play.
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Old 04-28-2020, 12:11 PM
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As a pure discussion of D&D as a service, my comments are pretty much related to the difference between being paid for a freelancing service or trying to cash in on people who are willing to throw money at things, also the shift in game community feeling from friends to paying members. Personally I would be of the "never pay to play" crowd, mostly because I would rather game with friends or here than pay money to play a game which my only link to the GM or players is said game. There are others out there who pay monthly subscriptions for MMOs, so clearly I have not the sole perspective.

Game for service: when you pay to play a game, pay to use fancy features of a virtual tabletop, or pay for a published adventure, what you are doing is repaying the people who shelled out beforehand to pay the creator(s), designer(s), developer(s), etc. (As an important point, I'm not going to get into the finances of games or the companies that arguably get far more profits than the creators... that sort of discussion will get way out of hand quickly, and has no purpose relevant to the current discussion. I will also recommend others avoid potentially fiery subjects as well, please and thank you.)

Where a GM is concerned, the efforts they make are counted in time and measured in depth of desirability. GMing on RPGX is obviously voluntary, people want to run a game they think will be a lot of fun. Do they put a huge amount of work into them? Heck yes. Anyone who has seen a GM try to lay out FAQ threads or walkthroughs of harder parts of a setting before even advertising can see the work put into it, and that's to say nothing of the time spent building a plot, creating NPCs, etc. Not to mention the time commitment the GM is offering to make to actually run the game. In a pay to play D&D scenario, I think the GM asking for a bit of commitment from the players and some compensation for the time involved in designing interactive maps, tokens, and any other made-from-scratch content is normal behavior. Among friends it's just an understood commitment, so we may not register it as such, but among strangers asking for a small fee isn't out of the question, it's usually how we interact in the real world, we get paid to perform duties (jobs) and suchlike for people who can't inherently trust all of our motivations because we're not close friends. The difference I would note is between people like I found on a site aptly named DM for Hire who are charging $20 per person to run an in-depth four-hour session (which I personally find reasonable) and the people like I discovered in verbatim: "Being a professional DM is, in many ways, the perfect side hustle."an actual Bloomberg business article which charge $300 for an individual four-hour beginner campaign, $500 for a professional D&D-based team building exercise, and so on. I think those prices are extreme, but then I read further and saw the actual rented space set up for immersive D&D, the hands-on resources already purchased for potential players such as miniatures, and the brewing potions [...] a combination of water, vanilla, and cherry bitterslengths described to get those unused to D&D involved with more of their senses. All of that taken into account, I wouldn't be surprised if the prices listed are designed for profit beyond expenses, though I think the profit margin may be larger than I would personally want to deal with. (Even that said, if someone wants to make a go of GMing as a career, they have to pay their bills somehow.)

Getting back to virtual games, though, both things I just referenced were in-person DMing, people who had transportation costs to go meet their players or space costs if people came to them. (The active site also now discussed how things are shifting to virtual because of the coronavirus, but that was after the design of their business.) I would think paying to play a virtual game of whatever variety is also different, but based on the same points: resources, setup, and time involvement for the GM.

...and that grew quickly. Sorry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imveros View Post
Though you might want to be careful of running a foul of this site's off site gaming rules.
The site's rules are designed to keep our membership involved here, rather than send them elsewhere to find their gaming fix. Provided this remains a theoretical discussion of the merits of paid GMing (and not an advertisement of services elsewhere), we're okay. Thanks for noting this, though, it's important for everyone to keep in mind.
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Old 04-28-2020, 12:50 PM
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The concern I have on this is 'follow the money'...

Where is the incentive for the DM to be stingy and make you work for everything? Why would the DM ever kill one of his PC's, when there is a high chance that it will end up resulting in a loss of a customer? What is preventing a paid DM from granting all of your wildest dreams, aka Monte Hall?

From a costing perspective, it would have to be a LOT assuming it was done just for mercenary purposes. Assuming 4 players and a 4 round session + 1 hour development time, you are looking at 1.25 hours per player. If the DM is going to make $15 hour, then everyone would have to pay $20 every time you wanted to play. I'm not saying I wouldn't pay to play something like this as a novelty with a group like Critical Role, but I wouldn't make a habit out of it.

I could see it working and have no ethical qualms in it's implimentation, but I don't see it as a long term viable proposition from a business standpoint.
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Old 04-28-2020, 12:58 PM
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I think I've seen the same DM for Hire site, Aethera. I briefly considered trying my hand at that, but when I factored in the prepwork and the fact that I probably wouldn't enjoy DMing for randos in that kind of setting, I quickly tossed the idea out.

I think I'd fall in about the same camp as most here. I can see the appeal, but I don't think it's for me. I love the idea of people having "skin in the game", and that possibly reducing attrition and increasing personal/time investment in the story/game. I also like the idea of compensating someone who puts in a ton of time to craft an experience for someone, particularly if it's a group of people that doesn't know one another. Among friends, I agree with what people have said before.

My concerns about it from my end:
  • If I were charging people for my DMing, I would feel so much more pressure to put on a fantastic experience. I already second-guess a lot of what I do and beat myself up over mistakes. I don't need to bring money into that mess. I'd rather leave it as a labor of love.
  • I'd also be concerned that, in a scenario like that, I'd have trouble letting the game evolve and become more personalized for the players and their characters. For me, that often involves a bit of experimentation and talking and retconning and whatnot. I can easily see that being taken poorly by people who are paying for an experience. It would likely be a 100% on-the-rails linear experience. And while I appreciate a certain degree of linearity, I imagine that would start to feel more like a prison for me.
  • This isn't an insurmountable problem, but I think this is complicated by people of different knowledge/skill levels having different expectations. You'd really need to be very clear about what kind of game is being played and what kind of services are provided to avoid pissed off "customers." e.g. Teaching a newbie the ropes while experienced players get annoyed. Or managing expectations of someone who wants to do "deep roleplay" and try to talk to the goblins and learn their stories versus someone who's more interested in hack-and-slash. Etc, etc. These are things that can be hashed out and talked about among friends OR in a pay-to-play environment via a session zero. But I think that a structured, pay-to-play environment makes it more complicated.

As I said, none of the problems are insurmountable. But boy do I not like the idea of me, personally, taking part in any of that...
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Old 04-28-2020, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unko Talok View Post
  • I'd also be concerned that, in a scenario like that, I'd have trouble letting the game evolve and become more personalized for the players and their characters. For me, that often involves a bit of experimentation and talking and retconning and whatnot. I can easily see that being taken poorly by people who are paying for an experience. It would likely be a 100% on-the-rails linear experience. And while I appreciate a certain degree of linearity, I imagine that would start to feel more like a prison for me.
  • This isn't an insurmountable problem, but I think this is complicated by people of different knowledge/skill levels having different expectations. You'd really need to be very clear about what kind of game is being played and what kind of services are provided to avoid pissed off "customers." e.g. Teaching a newbie the ropes while experienced players get annoyed. Or managing expectations of someone who wants to do "deep roleplay" and try to talk to the goblins and learn their stories versus someone who's more interested in hack-and-slash. Etc, etc. These are things that can be hashed out and talked about among friends OR in a pay-to-play environment via a session zero. But I think that a structured, pay-to-play environment makes it more complicated.
From my point of view, I would see the first point meaning communication pre-game, which I wouldn't count in the tally of time spent. That's just making sure you've got the details correct for your contract.

The second point would concern me more, unless you do it as a GM for hire scenario, where the GM is being hired by players (plural), already having formed a group, or at least strangers who decided on grouping up to play, and have discussed what they're looking for in a game, and probably anything that makes a West Marches (original creator's blog post link) game work well. If you tried to offer your services to individuals and somehow make them a group with similar enough motivations and desires to get them hooked on a campaign... I'd see doubling the time investment at minimum. In theory you could expand the GM for hire scenario with a "players seeking games" forum of sorts, which would allow a place for players to link up with the express purpose of hiring that GM. I assume such a place would also provide some decent quotes from players who've played with that GM before, which would be site/forum/PR boosting.

Out of curiosity, my own question that I would also like to keep theoretical, please and thank you: What would you want to see as the GM's "resume" or references? Assume for this purpose that you would pay such a GM, obviously. The things that occur to me might include a cut-together session zero/character creation video of the GM answering different character questions, helping a new player in more detail, etc. That would show you a lot about the GM's OOC abilities, how they handle questions, and how thoroughly or briefly they can answer based on player experience. But I'm not really sure how you would show off your IC skills. For an in-person game you could have a table set up with minis and GM screen, and video the GM running a combat scene (with the PCs off-camera but audible), or an exploration scenario... but I'm not really seeing a lot of ways to do either video without prior-taped video segments and permission from players to use their faces or voices within those PR resume bits. I suppose you could run a virtual game for friends who agree upfront (and in writing, to cover any concerns later) that they're going to tape it and let you use it for that purpose, but it seems like it'd be hard to get a real feeling for how the game could go, since you'd have rapport with your players already and they would probably have enough experience to not bog things down.
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Old 04-28-2020, 04:01 PM
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I'd never pay to play in a game (and I've never paid to play at a convention either, but then I've not really played any rpgs at conventions), and more importantly, I'd never charge to GM for anyone either. So I guess at least there'll always be some people who can play for free, even if it means they'll have to put up with my crappy GMing.
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Old 04-28-2020, 04:39 PM
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there'll always be some people who can play for free, even if it means they'll have to put up with my crappy GMing.
Nice!

For me, the question isn't whether someone would pay to game with others, because I know there are people out there with disposable income and time. There are people who don't want PBP (too much writing, too much time investment etc) and don't have a network of friends who will help them indulge their DND craving. I once worked for a company where I would have been crazy to talk about DND, and many people in senior positions likely feel the same.

The question seems to be about finding and connecting with a small, niche market of people. They're busy, they're probably male, they probably aren't using a lot of social media, they aren't going to their local game store and they don't want to hang out with kids. They may not have played DND since 2nd edition, but may be feeling nostalgia for it. They might still occasionally play an RPG video game to get a fix, time permitting, but still miss the satisfaction of live action. The feel of rolling a die. Am I on the right track?

People on this site are likely not the target audience, not because of income, but rather because of exposure to the gaming world.

Seems like identifying an audience would be the first goal, figuring out how to connect with them is second, and winning them over with social proof/credibility from there.
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Old 04-28-2020, 05:03 PM
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I've considered running my own In-Person DMing service. To keep my comments brief, here are some highlights:
  • Expect to run a max of 60 people in a 5-day week of Morning/Evening sessions.
  • To do this "Full-Time", you probably want to charge a minimum of $27 per person to cover your healthcare and other expenses. (When you start out, it will likely be less, and you may need to charge a flat "per game" rate, rather than "per person" to ensure your time is well spent.)
  • "Interest" in any major city is purely a matter of marketing. For example, in Chicago, which has 2.7+ Million people, there are more people willing to spend their coin on this kind of service than you will ever be able to connect with. (With an online service, your market increases 100-fold)
  • In-Person sessions benefit from a full sensory experience, concessions, and an inflated sense of value.
  • Online sessions suffer from additional technical and social difficulties, and a decreased sense of value. (All of which you are suddenly responsible for.)
  • To go "Full Professional", it is worth focusing on brand development. Creating content, selling merchandise, etc. (The actual DMing would be the heart of a much larger machine.)
  • Especially in the case of Professional Online DMing, your reputation is going to be your most valuable asset.

Beyond that, it is also helpful to consider what it is you want to sell...

As others have already indicated, selling D&D is like selling "friendship", which can put a bad taste in people's mouths. However, if you use D&D to sell something else, like "Teambuilding", "Improv", or "Creative Writing", expectations will shift, and people will feel more comfortable spending considerably more for slight variations on the same thing.

In the case of "Yoga via Zoom", people will pay hand over fist for health, vanity, and virtue-signalling content. If you can package your product in terms of what drives people on a basic level, it doesn't really matter what the product actually is. (Common wisdom is that it's 10x easier to keep a customer than it is to gain a new one, so if your wife was running Yoga classes before COVID, then she started off with a significant leg up. No pun intended.)


In the end, there is going to a strong relationship between how invested you want to get and how much you can charge:

You may find that if you're only interested in DMing as a side gig that your rates will fall into the "Buy the DM pizza and a beer" category. (Fun, but not a good source of income)

If you scale up to "Part-Time", you may find that the responsibility of professionalism outweighs the rewards. (Paid enough to be blamed when things go wrong, but not paid well enough to do anything about it.)

Once you go "Full-Time", you'll be able to afford tools and resources that make life easier, there will be more consistency from week to week, and you'll begin to harvest the fruits of your labors down the road. (However, you need to be financially secure and motivated enough to survive the "Start-up" process.)


For someone just getting started, I would suggest investing a little bit of time into building a basic brand/identity as though you were going to be paid DM, and then give yourself a few months of "Beta Testing" where you run your games at substantially discounted rates to build up your network and get some experience. This will keep your expectations and demands low, while giving you the freedom to increase your rates and expenses over time without scaring off existing clients...

Hypothetically speaking.
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Old 04-28-2020, 06:42 PM
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I came here to add my two cents, and find it's been well covered.

So, I will just say, I explored doing this back in 1980 or so, and briefly, again in the 90's when I lived in a much larger metropolitan area.

The fact that I went to college, earned a couple degrees, and work as a professional Safety Manager will probably tell you what you need to know about my success as a professional DM.
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Old 04-28-2020, 09:51 PM
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I imagine that rocks never fell in your dungeons, given your current profession.
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