[OOC] Surwall - South of the Wall

[Rinjo]

China has Socialistic wage controls. Their labor is not allowed to compete for wages. Under capitalism as capital goods increase production, wages rise as the laborer is more valuable.

I guess your example confused me. The china example is not an example of unregulated capitalism. It is the result of a socialistic/communistic government holding their people back with artifical exchange rates and wage controls.

I am not arguing your point. Only your example. It would seem that your example is implying that china is unregulated capitalism while the us is socialism... and look how much more the US employee is getting paid for a mishap than the chinaman.

Maybe I didn't read it properly?

[Aitrus]

From my understanding, completely unregulated capitalism regulates itself. If the company's policys towards it's workers is poor, the workers leave for other work. The company fails. It behooves companies to treat their employees well in a true capitalist society. America is not a true capitalist society, and hasn't been for a long time. Like Ringo, maybe I'm misunderstanding why you chose that particular example. Your example doesn't support your contention.

But then again, I'm an uneducated, no-college bumpkin, so what do I know? Whichever the case, good luck on the paper. I always hated cram sessions in high school. We always tell ourselves that we'll never procrastinate again, but predectibly, we go ahead and repeat the process.

[Rinjo]

You are correct in your interpretation of my opinion. It is the intervention that keeps prices to high and wages too low that causes the worker suffering in china. Without government help the companies could not keep workers in these conditions.

[VPA_Shadow00]

China's government is not sound, nor is it a model of a successful communist or socialist state. The United States is a better example of a socialism than China. I identify socialism as a government giving their citizens the same freedoms Americans have, but also providing them with healthcare, a retirment, disability, et cetera.

The 'unregulated capitalism' to which I was referring to was the the ability of American countries to leave the country to operate in an unionized state with weak labor laws to exploit the cheap and poor work force there.

[Rinjo]

I think that the second half is worth talking about. What you are referring to is corporatism. It is what happens when government partners with business and allows business to do things that free markets would never allow.

It is what allows greedy shareholders to take advantage of a Chinese worker. If the Chinese government didn't enforce wage controls greed would be checked by competitive wages and working conditions. This is why the industrial revolution changed everything.

Before the industrial revolution workers were at the mercy of the landowners. When the industrial revolution happened, everything changed. Business could no longer control the worker without governments help.

The Chinese worker is kept down because his government, in a bid to maintain power, intentionally keeps wages low. They do not want their worker having free time because that breeds dissent. Coupled with that they peg their currency to the dollar so that their goods remain artificially low to us and keep their workers working.

Without their government's boot on wages and prices (currency peg), the Chinese worker would be buying the same items he is producing. He would have no need to ship his items overseas and he would be making more money under better working conditions.

The same could not be said of us. Remove those things and the US is dealing with lower wages, longer hours, higher prices and decreased standards of living.

It is a horrible partnership between government and the private sector that is the inevitable result of social planning and government intervention. Government could not bring about the events that put a ham sandwich onto your kitchen table. And if by some miracle they did there would be an inevitably catastrophic series of unintentional consequences to go along with it. Don't even dream of asking for chips!!!

[Gargleblaster]

The paradox of capitalism is that unregulated capitalism is as far from the free market as the most interventionist form of socialism.

If I run an enterprise in a completely unregulated capitalist system, and it would cost me $100,000 to raise wages to a decent level and make my enterprise attractive to workers, or $50,000 to crush my competition and have union leaders killed and beaten so that workers have no choice but to work for me under terrible conditions, I will get a better return on capital by spending the.$50,000.

Without government control, 'pure' capitalism tends to fond equilibrium in oligopolistic or monopolistic arrangements, rather than broadly competitive free markets.

Of course capitalism, like democracy, is the worst possible system - except for every other system that has been tried :P

[Thamewolf]

I always thought the best system was government of a small principality of people who share my beliefs and values, by people who share my beliefs and values.

(Note: Don't take the joke to mean I have no intellectual interest in the issue. Being in Cultural Studies courses, I have these discussions all the time, I just don't like mixing work with the stuff I use to escape work )

[Rinjo]

Originally Posted by Thamewolf

(Note: Don't take the joke to mean I have no intellectual interest in the issue. Being in Cultural Studies courses, I have these discussions all the time, I just don't like mixing work with the stuff I use to escape work )

Here Here...

So how about my characters massive 'brink of death' maneuver. I think I have the enemy right where I want them...

[Thamewolf]

I actually think it's a brilliant strategy. If one of us is on the brink of death maybe the remainder of us will get our butts in gear and start killing stuff. We were procrastinating before, but now we're on a time clock.

[Aitrus]

We'd better not do that too often. The numbers will catch up to us eventually.

It is a fun strategy, though.

[VPA_Shadow00]

Summon Monster, is a full round spell, but it says explicity it takes effect at the end of the casters turn, yet at first level it has a duration of 1 round.

So does that duration cause the monster only to appear for one round, the round it was summoned? Or does it persist one round in addition to the round in which it was summoned?

I am leaning towards the second statement. Which is correct though?

[VPA_Shadow00]

Also: New post is up!

[Thamewolf]

Going to go ahead and post since nothing's likely going to change my action

EDIT: I suppose the one thing that might change my action is if an opponent who acts before me moves closer such that my attack would draw an attack of opportunity. In that case, I would take my 5' step to a place that did not draw AoO

[Aitrus]

Sorry I haven't been around much the last few days. My computer has died and I'm on a borrowed laptop until my new one comes in. Posting will likely be sporadic until I get a dedicated machine back up and running again.

VPA, I tend to agree with Option 2. I doesn't make sense for the beastie to manifest, not have the opportunity to do anything, then leave. I would interpret the rule to say that it manifests at the end of the round it was cast (last action of the round), then rolls initiative at the beginning of the next round, and stays active for however many rounds are allowed it as per the spell, and unsummon at the end of whichever round the clock runs out on. By having it manifest at the end of the round it was cast, it can't do anything that round, but have at least one full standard round to act as normal before disappearing.

Example:
Round 1 - 1st level Caster casts Summon Monster as a full round action. Beastie manifests at end of Round 1.
Round 2 - Caster and beastie get full round of actions as normal. Beastie unsummons at end of Round 2. Higher caster levels gives beastie more rounds to wreak havok with bad guys before unsummoning.

[Rinjo]

/Concur.

Dont feel bad Ai. My character died so I totally understand.