RPG Crossing Home Forums Create An Account! Site Rules & Help

RPG Crossing
twitter google facebook

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #331  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:03 PM
Gath's Avatar
Gath Gath is offline
Another Gath Original
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-26-2019
RPXP: 24969
Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath
Posts: 25,579
I agree with that, to an extent, but that is how the church has remained a bastion of holy light and good, while so many people exact atrocities in its name. As long as your faith is pure and you follow a righteous path, then you shall be blessed as a devout follower of whomever. Perhaps even secure a place in the afterlife.

At that point it is not the holy warrior who has become LE, it is the entity they serve. And at that point it is a matter of how well that entity can convince the people that their cause is just and righteous. Faith is the true crucible.

Faith tells the Holy Warriors who are slaughtering witches and heretics and tieflings that they are doing so to purify these people, to cleanse them of the sins of their mortal coil, to turn them over to the benevolent judgment of whatever deity might be invoked for such a campaign.

That is how they maintain compassion. They believe in their bones that they are healing these people by sacrificing them to their god and sending them to a better place. That is the fallacy of fanaticism. It isn't about just murdering innocents and laughing because you are getting away with it. There is a deep seated lie associated with the atrocities being committed that is compelling these holy warriors to carry out these atrocious missions in the name of whatever they hold most dear - usually a deity or religion. Religious fervor accounts for most of the major atrocities in our history. Some of them are attached to other ideals, such as growth and expansion of a nation, racial purification. These are less about religion and more about devotion to a renowned leader or empire.

But yeah, there is a point where it slips from LG to LE, but as I said, that burden generally falls upon the overarching force that is the cause for such devotion, be it a church, a deity, a country, an emperor, a king? But they tend to be immune to such recriminations. Above reproach, as it were. We are not talking about them, we are talking about their devout soldiers.
__________________
Forgive me if I slight you. I mean you no harm.
Painting the sky with butterflies and giants, a little boy dragon found a balloon in the sun.

Reply With Quote
  #332  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:00 PM
loganic's Avatar
loganic loganic is offline
Stingy Black Mage
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-25-2019
RPXP: 332
loganic loganic loganic loganic
Posts: 192
I finished filling out the sheet to reflect a straight Oracle.
As far as our discussion, to put it into comic book terms, it reminds me Marvel's Civil War. Was Captain America still LG for sticking to his principles and rebelling against his idea of an injust law?

I'm saying that more to troll, rather than generate legitimate conversation.
Reply With Quote
  #333  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:07 PM
nickostopheles's Avatar
nickostopheles nickostopheles is offline
Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-22-2019
RPXP: 1834
nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles
Posts: 1,170
So, we are thoroughly digressing, but it's your thread so we can digress as much as you like. And of course, you can just tell me to shut up whenever you feel this is too derailed. Because, yeah, pretty off topic. So anyway...

I totally get your POV trying to connect D&D alignments as practiced with the real world equivalents. I don't say you're wrong per se, it's just your interpretation of the alignment system. You're kind of treating it like a court with precedents and trying to operate within those precedents. I'm just saying when I GM, I operate with the tvtropes approach, all loosey goosey and I ignore precedent at least while in D&D.

As a separate but related issue, there is the difference between the real world and D&D. Well, there are tons, but there's one in particular that I recently ran across with some friends while worldbuilding. We've been on/off playing RPGs for 30 yrs and we just recently started to joint worldbuild. It's been interesting.

One particular impass came with religion. We went with polytheistic like most D&D games. Part of us wanted the gods to be a pantheon but also be fighting each other for believers and belief-power. I tried to argue that this is mostly a monotheistic thing. The model for D&D has largely been the greco-roman model. In that mode, it is much more like a large dysfunctional family and each god has their thing. In that mode, the gods are factual and in some ways are the thing itself. Apollo IS the sun, blah blah blah. You worship in order to basically beg for help. They basically just like the ego-stroking. Gods don't need people, we need them to influence crops or what have you. Also they tend to be wayyy less manichean and so less prone to excessive good vs evil wars. D&D/Pathfinder haven't helped, putting a lot of good vs evil god wars that make less sense in polytheism unless tweaked in certain ways.

But, I realized that I'd kind of never played that right in my 30ish years. The gods are very provable facts in most D&D worlds and I never thought correctly about them. It was a very weird feeling. I just didn't connect how I was playing vs the Greco-Roman myths. I was doing it wrong in my head a lot.

And this is where things slip away from the real world. If Lathander is actually a goody goody and wiser than all humanity in his goodness, he will warn the fanatic via visions that he's screwing up and getting too fanatical. Lathander will eventually revoke all his clerical powers to show his dissatisfaction and he would correct the fanatic. If not that he'd just kill the jerk. The kinds of things that happened IRL would be much less likely in this scenario, unless the god in question started to behave crazy or more like a monotheistic god than a member of a pantheon.

This dynamic is completely unlike earth. Here if people run off the rails, there's only us to stop it. That does some weird stuff to your examples.

It's all very strange.
__________________
I post less on weekends.
Reply With Quote
  #334  
Old 01-31-2019, 05:31 PM
Nightstalkers's Avatar
Nightstalkers Nightstalkers is offline
Careless Whisper
Former Staff
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-02-2019
RPXP: 2413
Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers Nightstalkers
Posts: 6,877
Gath is still here running games? Awesome.

*Stalkstalkstalk*
__________________
Plurles is in and out as his life sees fit. Currently in and hoping to be for an extended time.
Reply With Quote
  #335  
Old 01-31-2019, 07:04 PM
Gath's Avatar
Gath Gath is offline
Another Gath Original
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-26-2019
RPXP: 24969
Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath
Posts: 25,579
It's more of a debate about the theoretics of morality in the very strict sense of the dnd/pathfinder nine alignments. I try to invoke moral issues and scenarios in my game(s) as often as possible, most of the time it goes unnoticed. We don't really use the nine alignments in this game, but it is a good way to create a frame of reference for your character and their motivations in an attempt to ascertain their agenda and a framework of how they will behave in society - or without society to govern them.

I was simply arguing that playing a paladin is no trifle thing. And that diminishing them to someone who is not bound by a rigid set of morals and driving principles to uphold the laws of faith and society for the betterment of both is counter, in my opinion, to what they were designed to be.
__________________
Forgive me if I slight you. I mean you no harm.
Painting the sky with butterflies and giants, a little boy dragon found a balloon in the sun.

Reply With Quote
  #336  
Old 01-31-2019, 11:25 PM
loganic's Avatar
loganic loganic is offline
Stingy Black Mage
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-25-2019
RPXP: 332
loganic loganic loganic loganic
Posts: 192
Yeah, I get that. The good and evil of the D&D universe is an absolute one, and that seems a bit strange to most us now that modern society has come to love more relativistic morals, including their anti-heroes and no-win-lesser-of-two-evils scenarios. We tend to feel that a realistic society is unable to have completely absolute morals. Many of our laws have exceptions baked-in, when it's ok to kill in self defense or something similar.

The only way to truly believe in lawful good is to maintain a level of naivety, a faith that the world can't give you an unsolvable puzzle, that you can always find an answer for every single, even tiny perceived injustice. When that's completely broadspectrum for every type of evil, it instead comes across as unbearable. Maybe that's why the Pathfinder playtest has instituted more specific goals, or why many DMs just insist on being non-evil paladins, and following a code that's specific to their particular deity.

I suspect that party friendliness aside, many DM's examine the lore of their world and mortal natures, and figure that any organization is going to have varying degrees in their beliefs. Paladins may still be the most devout, but even that may range between soft-spoken strong believers and absolute zealots. The absolute zealots may try to change everything, while the moderates may recognize that they need to focus their attention on the most desperate issues and have faith that their deity will sort out the rest.

Edit: I found a quote by Gygax that describes his take on Lawful Good paladins. It seems to be paladins need to be an unrelenting force unto evil doers. Mercy is for the accidental mistakes in life. An eye for an eye for everything that's truly evil, no mercy, not even those that surrender. It reminds me of the Astartes from WH40k. That doesn't scream stupid to me, just ruthless. Is that closer to what you intended?

Last edited by loganic; 01-31-2019 at 11:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #337  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:00 AM
Gath's Avatar
Gath Gath is offline
Another Gath Original
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-26-2019
RPXP: 24969
Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath
Posts: 25,579
It was the navigation of these very circumstances that you are mentioning that makes such an uncompromising take on reality and the people within it so much fun and such an incredible challenge. I have never played a paladin, but I have played with several in parties of my own and almost always ended up as an antagonist to their unbending moral code. I understand how to play one, I just choose not to, and I highly value those that are able to play one successfully and inject some real heart into that role. There is one in a game I am in now who is doing the best I've ever seen and his faith and tenacity and unyielding optimism in the face of such undefeatable adversity is quite literally affecting my character and transforming her from a faithless somewhat nihilistic loner to a devout follower and believer, albeit not as fanatic as he is just yet. The point is that he is leading by example and that is more impacting than preaching. His life is full of hard choices and sacrifice, but there is only one path to follow.

I believe that is what Gygax is saying, to an extent. That a person in that line of work doesn't compromise because it is convenient to do so. Doesn't look the other way because there's no time to make an example of a criminal or because it might be uncomfortable in present company to take the time to make that example for all to see. The example of what to do to a rapist is a good one. There is just simply a code to live by and no time for anyone to get in the way of enacting the laws that they live by.

This is what makes traveling with a paladin fun and awkward and uncomfortable. They can't just witness a pickpocket and keep riding by. They are bound by their own code of morality to stop and make an example of that pickpocket in an effort to squash out such behavior for the future. If you are successful though, and you end up killing a pickpocket and a few bandits as well, then you will likely be lauded as a hero by the town and treated as such, so with the uncomfortable awkwardness and distraction comes the reward of heroism and a job well done.

I am talking about how things were intended to be played from the beginning. You are talking about what they may have morphed into. I don't particularly appreciate what they have turned into if such compromises are being made. I think that takes the fun out of things to allow there to be such an opportunity to justifiably avoid moral responsibility to the extent that the paladin was designed to possess. You're turning them into a well natured bard with better fighting and ability to wear armor who is just as willing to talk himself out of a situation than he is to give a sermon on what everyone is doing wrong, but no action is required. I think, quite honestly, that is missing the very heart of the dilemma of what it means to be a paladin.

I'm good with leaving it at that. I have enjoyed what everyone has said on the topic. I think we've all given our piece with well spoken arguments. I acknowledge that this has been a debate for fun about an interesting dnd related topic and that I am not offended in any way, in fact I enjoyed the discussion. But perhaps it's time we move on to something else.

Please give me a heads up when you have completed your applications and provide a link if possible. Thank you.
__________________
Forgive me if I slight you. I mean you no harm.
Painting the sky with butterflies and giants, a little boy dragon found a balloon in the sun.

Reply With Quote
  #338  
Old 02-01-2019, 08:14 AM
nickostopheles's Avatar
nickostopheles nickostopheles is offline
Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-22-2019
RPXP: 1834
nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles
Posts: 1,170
Werd.

I can tinker forever, but Muldoon is done.
__________________
I post less on weekends.
Reply With Quote
  #339  
Old 02-01-2019, 10:26 AM
loganic's Avatar
loganic loganic is offline
Stingy Black Mage
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-25-2019
RPXP: 332
loganic loganic loganic loganic
Posts: 192
Yep, I ended up making a few more tweaks that fits me right into the jungles, but I think this is good enough.

Last edited by loganic; 02-01-2019 at 12:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #340  
Old 02-02-2019, 03:46 AM
Gath's Avatar
Gath Gath is offline
Another Gath Original
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-26-2019
RPXP: 24969
Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath
Posts: 25,579
Nick have you considered the elven curve blade? It's exotic but it seems like it might be a better fit than just using longsword stats.

Kaylara and loganic and Nick, I'm prolly most going to hire you all on and see what happens. But it's late and I'm on my phone now so I can't very well manage the details of that task right now.

Start your sheets. Level seven, but you'll be mythic soon so start planning ahead for that. I'll get private threads going this weekend and we can get to work.

Read the last few pages of the current game thread. You'll likely have been able to witness some of the shenanigans that have taken place there. I'm looking to get you involved asap whether or not you have sheets ready. But please do tend to your mechanics.
__________________
Forgive me if I slight you. I mean you no harm.
Painting the sky with butterflies and giants, a little boy dragon found a balloon in the sun.

Reply With Quote
  #341  
Old 02-02-2019, 09:54 AM
kaylara's Avatar
kaylara kaylara is offline
The hidden treasure
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-25-2019
RPXP: 18136
kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara kaylara
Posts: 17,810
Excellent, thanks for the opportunity and looking forward to a great game. It shouldn't take too long to put a sheet together. I'll let you know and will look for the thread.
Reply With Quote
  #342  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:16 PM
OneDarkness's Avatar
OneDarkness OneDarkness is online now
Community Supporter
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-25-2019
RPXP: 11972
OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness OneDarkness
Posts: 7,976
Games need more paladins, if nothing else than to stop players from being murder hobo's, somebody has got to speak up for the poor and the repressed of the world. Though if you must play a pathfinder paladin who is less divine you could take the Gray Paladin archetype, but where is the challenge in that
__________________
Posting Status: Normal Monday through Friday, weekends can be iffy.
Life Update - April 2nd: Its good to be back at RPGX, its a great community and its been nice reconnecting with some of the players I knew from before I left. Have fun out there.
Reply With Quote
  #343  
Old 02-03-2019, 09:23 PM
nickostopheles's Avatar
nickostopheles nickostopheles is offline
Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-22-2019
RPXP: 1834
nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles nickostopheles
Posts: 1,170
Quote:
Nick have you considered the elven curve blade? It's exotic but it seems like it might be a better fit than just using longsword stats.

Kaylara and loganic and Nick, I'm prolly most going to hire you all on and see what happens. But it's late and I'm on my phone now so I can't very well manage the details of that task right now.

Start your sheets. Level seven, but you'll be mythic soon so start planning ahead for that. I'll get private threads going this weekend and we can get to work.

Read the last few pages of the current game thread. You'll likely have been able to witness some of the shenanigans that have taken place there. I'm looking to get you involved asap whether or not you have sheets ready. But please do tend to your mechanics.
Elven curved blade is cool, but two-handed and I wanted to keep one hand free for spell-casting in action. Does that make sense?

Thanks.
__________________
I post less on weekends.
Reply With Quote
  #344  
Old 02-10-2019, 10:21 AM
TopKek23's Avatar
TopKek23 TopKek23 is offline
Very Young Dragon
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 02-10-2019
RPXP: 100
TopKek23 TopKek23
Posts: 7
Um, hello? Is this still alive? I was wondering if I would be able to join

Last edited by TopKek23; 02-10-2019 at 10:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #345  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:00 PM
Gath's Avatar
Gath Gath is offline
Another Gath Original
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-26-2019
RPXP: 24969
Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath Gath
Posts: 25,579
I think I'm capped out at seven players right now. Thanks for interest. I'll get back to you if someone drops.
__________________
Forgive me if I slight you. I mean you no harm.
Painting the sky with butterflies and giants, a little boy dragon found a balloon in the sun.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:48 AM.
Skin by Birched, making use of original art by paiute.( 2009-2012)


RPG Crossing, Copyright ©2003 - 2019, RPG Crossing Inc; powered by vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Template-Modifications by TMB