Ask The Sage - Quick Rules Questions volume 9- Shadowrun system

[Silk]

A Question about Shooting Through a Barrier:

• Barriers have Armor so do I apply a sniper rifle's -4 AP to the removing dice the barrier's armor gives for reducing the weapon's damage?barrier and apply the -4 AP to the target's Soak roll as normal?

Talking mundane Barriors here. Actually a normal glass windshield. No magic involved.

[RainyDayNinja]

Originally Posted by Silk

A Question about Shooting Through a Barrier:

• Barriers have Armor so do I apply a sniper rifle's -4 AP to the removing dice the barrier's armor gives for reducing the weapon's damage?barrier and apply the -4 AP to the target's Soak roll as normal?

Talking mundane Barriors here. Actually a normal glass windshield. No magic involved.

FWIW, the examples don't use AP on the barriers at all.

[Silk]

There I go assuming again. It said it had armor and so I Assumed! that a -4 AP weapon would affect the barrier too.

BTW, what does FWIW mean?

[RainyDayNinja]

Originally Posted by Silk

There I go assuming again. It said it had armor and so I Assumed! that a -4 AP weapon would affect the barrier too.

BTW, what does FWIW mean?

FWIW = For What It's Worth

And I say that because I wouldn't necessarily assume the examples in the Shadowrun books are entirely accurate.

[Phettberg]

This seems to be a case where you could say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", i.e. AP might still well apply to a barrier, even if they forgot about it in the example. Though I'm not sure if the example has them using a weapon with AP at all though. If they did and it hadn't applied, I guess that is technically a nudge towards it not applying. Chuck it on the pile of logical inconsistencies.

From my point of view I would certainly let it apply to a mundane physical one because AP is exactly made for this purpose - to puncture physical objects better - even if it primarily has body-armour in mind. With a magical physical barrier the gm would have to make a ruling once and then stick with it. Again, personally I would rule that it applies there too.

[bothers]

Originally Posted by Yamaneko

It helps if you have the errata or the last printing of the actual core book. The pdf version should be up to date as well and available if you purchased it through one of the many stores like DrivethruRPG.

I have the latest version from DrivethruRPG - the problem is definitely not that I'm looking at some old, uncorrected version! The problem is that I've not yet been able to get from seeing the words on the page to grokking what the words mean. I've read a bunch of threads on Reddit and shadowruntabletop and watched a load of Complex Action videos and none of that has helped either - I can't get it straight in my head.

Maybe an example might help explain where my confusion comes from. It's not a ritual magic thing, it's just a normal mana barrier, cast in the field.

example Imagine that Gobbet casts a Force 4 mana barrier to hide behind. She gets 3 hits on her Spellcasting test. Johnny Magehand wants to fry Gobbet with a Force 4 manabolt, because he is a terrible human being. He casts one and gets 4 hits on his Spellcasting test. My understanding, from reading the rules, is that Gobbet now gets to resist Johnny's 4 hits with 8D6 from "When your direct combat spell is successfully cast, it inflicts a number of boxes of damage equal to your net hits on the opposed test. The opposed test generally pits your Spellcasting + Magic [Force] against either Body (for physical spells) or Willpower (for mana spells)."her Willpower 4, plus the "Anybody trying to cast a spell through a barrier must contend with the Force of the barrier, which is added to the Defense or the Resistance dice pool."Force 4 of her barrier. Here is my confusion - if my reading is correct, what happened to the 3 hits Gobbet got from her original Spellcasting test? Do they also form part of the resistance pool? Or do they just get discarded? If they're discarded, then what was the point of rolling her Spellcasting pool to create the barrier in the first place?

If I've completely got the interpretation wrong, then I'd be very grateful for an example that puts me right (there doesn't seem to be one in the book).

(Edit to add: none of this is exactly what i was asking about in my previous post. The current example is really just a reflection of my current confusion which is similar to my original confusion, and is now just now a bit more of an advanced case)

[Phettberg]

I can only repeat - it makes no sense to use the intended force over the hits scored, which forms the "barrier rating". I am not aware of any other spell that works that way in all of the material available. Way easier to assume a typo in a heavily errata'd book than to assume they just gave up on their entire spellcasting system for a second (i.e. more hits means more power, more force means a higher limit).

In my opinion they either used the word force in a figurative way for a second, not in the "limit for net hits on spells" way, i.e. a barrier with a higher barrier rating is figuratively more forceful. That or it is simply a typo. Force may influence some characteristics of a spell, like AP on a fireball or the size of a physical barrier, but raw effectiveness is always subject to net hits.

So it's willpower + net hits on the barrier, IMO.

[bothers]

And with the Force acting as the limit on the resistance test. Yeah, that would make more sense. Thanks for this, Phettberg - I promise I wasn't just ignoring your earlier post! Was just really struggling to fit all the pieces together in my head in a logical way. You've been very helpful.

[Yamaneko]

Force sets the limit on the number of hits you can use in your spellcasting test to cast the Mana Barrier. If your hits exceed your force than you can only use that number of them. This sets the Barrier ratings. So if you get three hits on force 4, it has a Barrier Rating of 3 but if you get seven hits on a Force 4 the Barrier is 4. Force is to spells what accuracy is to weapons. Force also is part of what determines whether drain is physical or stun.

In your example, the Mana Barrier is actually Rating 3 so it would be 7d6 to resist against the 4 hits of the Mana Bolt.

[Yamaneko]

Originally Posted by Silk

A Question about Shooting Through a Barrier:

• Barriers have Armor so do I apply a sniper rifle's -4 AP to the removing dice the barrier's armor gives for reducing the weapon's damage?barrier and apply the -4 AP to the target's Soak roll as normal?

Talking mundane Barriors here. Actually a normal glass windshield. No magic involved.

It depends on if it is a Penetrating Weapon which the sniper rifle is so you apply those rules first. As Firearms are considered Penetrating Weapons, their AP does not apply to Barrier Rating Armor. If your modified DV equals or exceeds the Armor Rating than it penetrates. You remove the damage as shown and then apply the AP and the now modified, modified damage is the resistance roll of the target.