[Mechanics] Game Mechanics and Serious Business

[Eviltedzies]

Please note that this is a work in progress.

Name: Marius Devon Gaius
Race: Lesser Aasimar
Template: Magic Blooded (LA 0)
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral (Leaning towards good.)
Personality: WIP
Background:

 

Backstory Originally born into a minor noble house, Marius was placed as a scribe in the local church in order to both bring honor and prestige to his family and to make use of his minor celestial heritage. Marius studied hard and did his best to support his comrades when he was called to aid in helping others. Soon, Marius became a competent healer and even fell in love. During one mission to seek out and bring justice to a group of pirates terrorizing a nearby coastal region, Marius was captured as he watched his friends dying all around him. As his captain ordered for a retreat, he called out to Marius telling him to "Have faith, I shall return for you!" Beaten and at the mercy of the pirates, Marius held on to the hope that his captain would find and rescue him. Days became weeks, weeks became months, time stretched on painfully slow for Marius. His skills as a healer fetched his captors a fair amount of coin in the slave markets and eventually Marius found his way to being the cabin boy and doctor of a band of rowdy pirates who loved to steal and then party with the money gained. The ship was captained by a venerable elven pirate named Zain "Ace" Lequa whose exuberance and energy seemed contradictory to his graying hair and wrinkled face. Even though he was a slave, his captors treated him like one of the crew. They often offered him drinks, invited him to play games, and even took him with them to the brothels when they made port. Not wanting to anger his captors, Marius indulged in these pleasures. At first he felt guilty of betraying his holy oaths and his love back home. Surprisingly, Marius eventually developed a fond attachment to his fellow crew members and even began to indulge more willingly during their parties. Time does not heal all wounds however and Marius still longed to return home to his family and his love. One night while his crew was passed out drunk, Marius made up his mind to escape and make his way home. His years as a pirate allowed him to seamlessly blend in to the local crowd and charter passage back home without being caught. After what seemed like an eternity Marius finally made it home. Sadly, fate is a cruel mistress. To Marius' shock he discovered that his captain had wedded the very woman Marius had once loved. Seeking out his family for solace, he found his mother had fallen into a depression and took ill before passing away mere months before he had arrived home. Despite being the eldest child, his father had apparently disinherited him from succeeding the family line in favor of his younger brother. What truly stabbed Marius was that his father had penned the new will less than a month after Marius had been captured without even informing his mother. A combination of hatred and immense grief welled up inside Marius. The bitterness he felt at the world was more than his words could express. In a silent fit of rage and grief, Marius left as quickly as he departed. Wandering the lands, Marius went back to the only friends he had left.... his crew mates. The entire crew was absolutely stunned to see Marius return. They became even more confused as Marius willingly allowed himself to be jailed and showed no resistance to being beaten and threatened with death for being a runaway slave. When they finally questioned him what had happened, Marius told his grim story with a voice as lifeless as a corpse. At that point Marius had resigned himself to whatever fate his captain would have enacted upon him. Part of Marius wished to die yet he had not the strength to end his own life himself. Such was his grief and weariness. In a moment that would forever be etched into the annals of Marius' memories, the captain of the ship slipped out his dagger and heated it in the fire until it was red hot. The captain asked if Marius would still be a member of his crew to which Marius simply nodded. He had no strength to argue and the captain's threat on his life sparked a faint hope in Marius. Without warning the captain had Marius restrained before laying the flat of the dagger across the tattoo on Marius' lower neck that marked him as a slave. Despite his weariness, Marius could not help but let out a scream as adrenaline filled him. As the burn quickly cooled, Marius looked at his captain confused as to the meaning of his captain's actions. The captain merely smiled and extended his hand. "Life is a cruel thing lad, but a man should never turn his back on his family. You've always been a part of our family. Now will you continue to sail the skies with us and create many fond memories to come?" Marius blinked in confusion as one by one, each of the crew extended their hands to Marius. The smiles on their faces melted away the grief inside Marius and as tears streamed down his face he took his captain's hand saying. "Aye captain. I'd like that very much." No longer a slave and finding new purpose in life, Marius dedicated himself to his new found family. He took up the practice of sorcery to supplement his divine healing with arcane defenses that he used to protect his crew on their daring raids. In time Marius even managed to pick up some skills with a blade although his preference was always to sit in the back and support his comrades with spells. Times were good for Marius and he felt like he could put his past behind him. One day when returning from gathering some supplies Marius found the ship missing and several of his friends dead or dying around the docks. Hurriedly he tried his best to save who he could, but whatever had assaulted them had damaged them more than just physically. Even though his magics seemed to be doing no good, Marius continued to pour spell after spell over his comrades trying to heal then. Old memories and painful wounds began to reopen as Marius begged his dying friends to tell him what had happened. The information Marius was able to glean before the last of his family passed on was to "Seek out Captain Ward. He is a friend of the captains...."

 

Ability	Stat	Racial	Template	4th	Total
Strength	10				10
Dexterity	12				12
Constitution	12				12
Intelligence	10				10
Wisdom	12	+2	-2	+1	13
Charisma	16	+2	+2		20

Effective Level	Class	HD	Skills	BAB	BMB	Fort	Ref	Will	Class Abilities	Feats
1	Cloistered Cleric	d6	6+Int	+0	+1	+0	+2	+2	Aura, Cleric Domains (Pride, Pleasure, & Knowledge), Domain Spell (1st), Spontaneous Casting (1st), Turn Undead, Lore	Enlarge Spell [Metamagic]
2	Cloistered Cleric	d6	6+Int	+1	+2	+0	+3	+3	Domain Spell (1st)
3	Cloistered Cleric	d6	6+Int	+1	+3	+1	+3	+3	Domain Spell (2nd), Spontaneous Casting (2nd)	Persistent Refusal [Divine]
4	Cloistered Cleric	d6	6+Int	+2	+4	+1	+4	+4	Domain Spell (2nd)
5	Cloistered Cleric	d6	6+Int	+2	+5	+1	+4	+4	Domain Spell (3rd), Spontaneous Casting (3rd)
6	Cloistered Cleric	d6	6+Int	+3	+6	+2	+5	+5	Domain Spell (3rd)	Skills Beyond Your Years: Concentration
7	Battle Sorcerer	d8	4+Int	+0	+1	+2	+0	+2	Bonus Sorcerer Spell Slot (0th, 1st) Eschew Materials, Summon Familiar [Raven]
8	Battle Sorcerer	d8	4+Int	+1	+2	+3	+0	+3	Bonus Sorcerer Spell Slot (1st)
9	Battle Sorcerer	d8	4+Int	+2	+3	+3	+1	+3	Bonus Sorcerer Spell Slot (0)
10	Battle Sorcerer	d8	4+Int	+3	+4	+4	+1	+4	Bonus Sorcerer Spell Slot (2nd)
11	Battle Sorcerer	d8	4+Int	+3	+5	+4	+1	+4	Bonus Sorcerer Spell Slot (2nd)
12	Warweaver	d4	2+Int	+0	+0	+0	+0	+2	Eldritch Tapestry
13	Warweaver	d4	2+Int	+0	+1	+0	+0	+3	Quiescent weaving 1
14	Warweaver	d4	2+Int	+0	+2	+1	+1	+3	Quiescent weaving 2
15	Warweaver	d4	2+Int	+0	+3	+1	+1	+4	Quiescent weaving 3
16	Warweaver	d4	2+Int	+0	+4	+1	+1	+4	Enlarged Tapestry, Quiescent weaving 4
17	Warblade	d12	4+Int	+1	+0	+2	+0	+0	Battle Clarity (Reflex), Weapon Aptitude, Maneuvers
18	Warblade	d12	4+Int	+2	+1	+3	+0	+0	Uncanny Dodge
19	Warblade	d12	4+Int	+3	+1	+3	+1	+1	Battle Ardor (Critical Confirmation)
20	Bonus Feat									Magical Talent (Sorcerer?)
21	Bonus Feat									Steady Concentration

Total Bonus	BAB	BMB	Fort	Ref	Will	HD
	+3	+6	+4	+5	+5	3d12+3d8

[Eviltedzies]

I'm getting thoroughly confused by the layering methodology.

So from those tables that you guys put together I gather taking BAB & BMB do not stack until they hit cap of 6?
Aka: A Sorcerer 3/Cleric 3 would not have a BMB of 6. It would have a BMB of 3?

But a Sorcerer 6/Cleric 1 would have a BMB of 6 for BOTH Sorcerer & Cleric?

As for HP I 'm guessing we select the 6 best hit dice from all the chosen classes and use those?
Same for skills?

Just trying to clear things up because I've already had to rework my build three times. Each time I realized a rule or mechanic I had not bee following made the build illegal.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

I'm getting thoroughly confused by the layering methodology.
So from those tables that you guys put together I gather taking BAB & BMB do not stack until they hit cap of 6?
Aka: A Sorcerer 3/Cleric 3 would not have a BMB of 6. It would have a BMB of 3?

correct.

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

But a Sorcerer 6/Cleric 1 would have a BMB of 6 for BOTH Sorcerer & Cleric?

yes, but you could only ready 1st level cleric spells... they'll be cast as a 6th level cleric, but you won't get 2nd level cleric spells until cleric3 and 3rd level cleric spells until cleric5.

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

As for HP I 'm guessing we select the 6 best hit dice from all the chosen classes and use those?
Same for skills?

if you only have 1 class that has advanced to level 5 and 6, you will use that class's hd for your 5th and 6th hd.
wizard6/fighter4/eldritch knight2 would have d10,d10,d10,d10,d4,d4
same for skills... a fighter6/rogue4 would have skill points per level: 8,8,8,8,2,2
While both class skill lists can be used to pick class skills to improve, you will need to either buy more skill points with a feat, or advance a class with better than 2sp/level past level 4 to add to the 2 points you got at level 5 from the fighter.

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

Just trying to clear things up because I've already had to rework my build three times. Each time I realized a rule or mechanic I had not bee following made the build illegal.

sorry it's been so confusing. :/ The game mechanic is technically broken unless you take at least one class to level 6, but it never occurred to me that someone wouldn't /want/ to get to level 6 so they could have their full spell alotment, or top bab for a second attack, etc... but you've exposed this flaw, and I appreciate it.

As currently written, If we were playing 5th level characters using the rules I have in play, and you chose to build a fighter1/barbarian1/ranger1/druid1/rogue1... even though you've gained 5 levels, you would still have a bab +1, only 1d12 hp, and have 1 1st level druid spell... which is nothing compared to fighter5 with 5bab, 5d10hp, and a slew of feats... it is no comparison.

Because I've apparently written a horrible game design, it's best to have 6 levels in a "base class" to fill up your initial levels, then start layering in other classes to improve the initial build.

Worth noting; I set a ceiling of 16 and floor of 8 for all stats prior to selecting race.

.. one more annoyance: Divine Meta Magic tricks are permissable, but I won't grant access to a feat you can't normally use... like, persistent metamagic spell can technically be qualified for in E6, since it only has extend spell as a prequal, but it requires a spell slot 6 levels higher than the spell being modified... e6 will never have a 6th level spell slot, so persistent spell is not viable.
Same for maximize spell with it's +4 level bump reaching beyond the scope of e6 casting.

[Eviltedzies]

Originally Posted by Fil

yes, but you could only ready 1st level cleric spells... they'll be cast as a 6th level cleric, but you won't get 2nd level cleric spells until cleric3 and 3rd level cleric spells until cleric5.

Originally Posted by Trailblaizer Rules for Magic

The character’s total base magic bonus determines his caster level, his spell slots per rest, and the number of spells he may ready. At 1st level in any spellcasting class, the character gains access to all spells on a given spell list, adding them to his list of spells known.

From what I have read, class level no longer dictates the highest level spell you have access to or can cast. Since every caster class gains access to all the spells on their list at level 1 it falls to your BMB to determine what the highest level spell you can cast is.

So a Cleric 5/Sorcerer 1 under Fil's rules would have a BMB of +5. According to the BMB chart that means the PC can ready level 0 - 3 level spells of BOTH cleric & sorcerer since your BMB is +5 for both. I cannot find anything written in any of the classes or the Magic section that states that the max spell a caster can cast is based off his class level. If there is something I am missing please let me know.

Spellcasters are limited to the maximum spell level they may cast in three ways:

* by their total caster level;
* by minimum ability score, as listed above;
* by base magic bonus in the chosen class.

Found my answer.

Originally Posted by Fil

Worth noting; I set a ceiling of 16 and floor of 8 for all stats prior to selecting race

Aye Aye

Originally Posted by Fil

.. one more annoyance: Divine Meta Magic tricks are permissable, but I won't grant access to a feat you can't normally use... like, persistent metamagic spell can technically be qualified for in E6, since it only has extend spell as a prequal, but it requires a spell slot 6 levels higher than the spell being modified... e6 will never have a 6th level spell slot, so persistent spell is not viable.
Same for maximize spell with it's +4 level bump reaching beyond the scope of e6 casting.

Originally Posted by Divine Metamagic

When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change.

Technically you don't need a 6th level slot to DMM Persist a level 1 spell. Now if you are ruling as a DM that it won't work for other reasons then that is fine. Although I was so looking forward to 24 hour Vigor for the party.

[spikehed]

Adjusted Zor's stats for the new max 16 restriction.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

From what I have read, class level no longer dictates the highest level spell you have access to or can cast. Since every caster class gains access to all the spells on their list at level 1 it falls to your BMB to determine what the highest level spell you can cast is.

So a Cleric 5/Sorcerer 1 under Fil's rules would have a BMB of +5. According to the BMB chart that means the PC can ready level 0 - 3 level spells of BOTH cleric & sorcerer since your BMB is +5 for both. I cannot find anything written in any of the classes or the Magic section that states that the max spell a caster can cast is based off his class level. If there is something I am missing please let me know.

I'll pull the reference for you when I'm at my game compy.

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

Technically you don't need a 6th level slot to DMM Persist a level 1 spell. Now if you are ruling as a DM that it won't work for other reasons then that is fine. Although I was so looking forward to 24 hour Vigor for the party.

DMM gets around level requirements by blowing turn attempts, but to take DMM persistent you have to first take normal persistent as a prereq... and since E6 does not allow 4th or higher spell slots, persistent metamagic is "unavailable", even though the prereq for persistent is only extend metamagic.. a sorcerer could never persist a spell and without DMM neither could a cleric, so it's bad form to have it available in game.
DMM silent, or empower could be allowed, but then DMM maximize is not allowed.

The gist is, if a 6th level character could normally have access to something, then it is permissible.

[Eviltedzies]

I'll pull the reference for you when I'm at my game compy.

I found the relevant section. I get it now.

As for DMM. Understood. Keep anything beyond level 6 to a minimum. ^_^

[Grenadier]

Originally Posted by Fil kearney

DMM gets around level requirements by blowing turn attempts, but to take DMM persistent you have to first take normal persistent as a prereq... and since E6 does not allow 4th or higher spell slots, persistent metamagic is "unavailable", even though the prereq for persistent is only extend metamagic..

The gist is, if a 6th level character could normally have access to something, then it is permissible.

I just got home for the day, and it will take me a couple hours to settle in. I'm going to write that summary sometime tonight, and I will find a way to add this to the rule compendium.

[spikehed]

A mechanic I would like to discuss is Initiators from Tome of Battle. It seems like they are at a distinct disadvantage compared to casters, since casters get all spells on list as freely known. I am wondering if something similar can be done for Initiators.

As far as manuevers prepared, I recommend doing it exactly like spells. Recovery mechanics should be simplified to Warblade recover mechanic as a standard method.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by spikehed

A mechanic I would like to discuss is Initiators from Tome of Battle. It seems like they are at a distinct disadvantage compared to casters, since casters get all spells on list as freely known. I am wondering if something similar can be done for Initiators.

As far as manuevers prepared, I recommend doing it exactly like spells. Recovery mechanics should be simplified to Warblade recover mechanic as a standard method.

Very timely.. I've been mulling that over myself.
BMB already borrows from IL of ToB, so just making ToB follow the BmB rules is the easiest route for levels.
each class /is/ important because they have different disciplines.
Where it gets hairy is the known maneuvers vs readied maneuvers vs refresh mechanics.
1. Crusader knows x maneuvers, readies y maneuvers, and has them become randomly accessible until the RNG is refreshed; rinse repeat.
2. swordsage knows x maneuvers, no readied and has NO refresh unless adaptive style is used to refresh everything for a full round action
3. warblade knows x maneuvers, readies y maneuvers, and refreshes as a standard+swift action
..so... the easiest variable to work is the refresh mechanic.
if crusader is given the warblade refresh mechanic, then war/cru is more like a sorcerer to a swordsage's wizard...
swordsage has tons of known maneuvers but slower recover
cru/war has less known maneuvers but is faster to recover

-- the simplest conversion would be that crusader becomes an alternate warblade type class, so there is either refresh or no refresh built into the character.
--then there is known maneuvers... this should be treated as overlapping... so if you multiclass, use the highest # of known maneuvers as your amount to pick from the full list of abilities.. this can change daily... and lets ignore prereqs for "knowing" per day, since you technically know them all in your class.
--readied is eliminated... you have access to all your maneuvers until you use one then you either have a refresh mechanic to get them back, or you don't.
Adaptive style can still be used as normal.
For level 6.. I think this is going to be just fine.
Thoughts?

[spikehed]

So, just as clarification:

The Known Maneuvers acts as Spells Prepared. Crusader and Warblade have Warblade recovery mechanic and Swordsage has none (except feat). Entire list for your class is available to fill Known Maneuvers per day.

[spikehed]

As a side note, this also corrects the messed up spacing of the classes learning new stances (has always been an issue, crusader can't even learn it's highest level stances without two feats as Crusader 20)

[spikehed]

The only issue that I see with this is that there is no method of restricting an Initiator from Prepping all level 3 maneuvers per day instead of a mix of 1, 2 and 3. Obviously if only dipped, their level restricts them, but once 6th level has been reached, how do we prevent someone from just loading up on level 3 maneuvers?

Also, what happens when someone multiclasses Warblade/Crusader 6 + Swordsage 6. Since they pool their prepped maneuvers, can they use the recovery mechanic from Warblade/Crusader to refresh, or only some, or none?

[Grenadier]

Update the rule compendium with lots of today's rulings. I decided to hold off on adding the current initiator discussion, since it is ongoing.

I'd have to look over the Tome of Battle before I could comment, since I have not used the supplement in a couple years or so. I do think that the stance issue was fixed in the errata. Many DMs will houserule fix it too, since it is a known issue.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by spikehed

The only issue that I see with this is that there is no method of restricting an Initiator from Prepping all level 3 maneuvers per day instead of a mix of 1, 2 and 3. Obviously if only dipped, their level restricts them, but once 6th level has been reached, how do we prevent someone from just loading up on level 3 maneuvers?

that would be acting like a psion... I think a maxed psion has 33pp under this system.. which is 5 3rd powers and a 2nd level power...
ooh! 3 3rd level powers = 15, 3 2nd level powers = 6 2 1st level powers = 10 powers til exhausted before resting... but the psion could cast the same power over and over, while the initiators can only use each ability once before burning a round to get it back. I'd playtest that as balanced. outside of combat maneuvers are useless.

Originally Posted by spikehed

Also, what happens when someone multiclasses Warblade/Crusader 6 + Swordsage 6. Since they pool their prepped maneuvers, can they use the recovery mechanic from Warblade/Crusader to refresh, or only some, or none?

aha! swordsage can recover when multiclassing as a war/crus but only to the level of access the war/crus has, like bmb
so if swordsage6/warbalde1, the SwS could recover level 1 maneuvers as a warblade, by warblade3 swordsage could refresh level 3 maneuvers.