[Mechanics] Game Mechanics and Serious Business

[Eviltedzies]

Originally Posted by Fil

--Looks like you have wnat? 8 turn attempts... I'm good for usig Sacred Boost for the utility, but Persistent Rebuke duplicates a use of AP's.. so you basically ahve 8 bonus AP per rest to resist will DC saves... please replace that feat. its just too strong for the campaign.

Lol, you want me to ditch this, but I can have Iron Heart Surge instead? That seems sort of counter intuitive.

[Admin Dirk]

hmmm, good point on mobility. I may have to rework Rhoma, she doesn't qualify for Shadowdancer. I didn't catch the (non) interaction with the monk feats properly.

Hmmm, back to the drawing board for a moment.

edit... think I fixed it. had to swap class placement, and fix the error I also found in my stats (drop strength, increase dex), but I think i got it.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

Lol, you want me to ditch this, but I can have Iron Heart Surge instead? That seems sort of counter intuitive.

IHS grants auto success, but also requires a standard action to use, and is unavailable again until you refresh...
Persistent refusal is a swift action and can be used repeatedly... though it is unlkely it will be needed 8 times before you have a chance to Rest and restore the battery.

Tactically, IHS is an either/or decision you must make, vs P.Refusal, which is an obvious decision to use whenever needed.
So you take the no-brainer turn attempt to get the ability removed for a swift action, and if by chance you miss the second save, you can convert a move action into a swift action to try a third time, and if you miss that somehow, and really want to get rid of the effect, you just IHS it anyway.
So, If we are willing to pay a standard action to remove an effect, then pay for it. The PR option undercuts the significant decision of both IHS or spending an AP.

Originally Posted by Grenadier

Is that an okay on death ward armor? Or is that still pending? The character sheet is still ghost ward.

death ward armor is fine.

[Eviltedzies]

I would argue that the only reason Persistent Refusal Poses an issue here is due to my large number of turn attempts in a rest period. If I only had 1 or 2 turn attempts I do not think this would be an issue. In addition, I do not believe you can substitute a move action for a swift action. You can take a swift action and then an immediate action (Immediate action burning up your swift action for your next turn), but otherwise I would only get 1 swift action a round.

That and while an automatic success at debunking an effect for a standard action may take up a higher action priority, it also gives a guaranteed success; whereas, Persistent Refusal only lets me reroll a save. Statistically, Persistent Refusal has less chance to work than Iron Heart Surge and if the save fails it wastes an action. The other issue of note is that Iron Heart Surge gets rid of ANY condition regardless of how powerful the source. I could Iron Heart Surge out of a Hold Person cast by a 20th level caster; whereas, even if I got a second save thanks to Persistent Refusal, the chances of the character in an E6 game making the save is low.

Automatic Success for a Standard Action that takes 1 turn to refresh
or
Up to 8 extra attempted saves per "rest" period for a swift action with no guarantee of success and no ability to refresh in combat

If you still feel strongly about the ability being unbalanced then I'll swap it. I honestly just feel that in the context of what the character is supposed to do for the party. (Buff / Heal), being able to make the saves and continue doing his job would not become that unbalancing.

[spikehed]

I may have to rearrange some feats... my ac is a lil extreme.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by spikehed

I may have to rearrange some feats... my ac is a lil extreme.

Only against a single target, which ideally is a giants... If I read your build correctly.
Basic game tempo pretty much dictates any Grunt Mob I put you against will only be able to tolerate about 30-50hp of damage per mob member (moderately skilled enemies of level 3 - 5), and assumes saving throws will fail. Elites, solos and Bruisers will obviously be able to last longer, but hardly against all 6 of you focusing the same target. That sort of epic fight is going to require some truly nasty blocks of stats.

[Battlechaser]

I've added equipment to Brunner's sheet.

[Eviltedzies]

I'm guessing Persistent Refusal is still a no go Fil?

Just asking so if it needs to change I can swap the feat b4 game starts.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by Eviltedzies

I would argue that the only reason Persistent Refusal Poses an issue here is due to my large number of turn attempts in a rest period. If I only had 1 or 2 turn attempts I do not think this would be an issue. In addition, I do not believe you can substitute a move action for a swift action. You can take a swift action and then an immediate action (Immediate action burning up your swift action for your next turn), but otherwise I would only get 1 swift action a round.

That and while an automatic success at debunking an effect for a standard action may take up a higher action priority, it also gives a guaranteed success; whereas, Persistent Refusal only lets me reroll a save. Statistically, Persistent Refusal has less chance to work than Iron Heart Surge and if the save fails it wastes an action. The other issue of note is that Iron Heart Surge gets rid of ANY condition regardless of how powerful the source. I could Iron Heart Surge out of a Hold Person cast by a 20th level caster; whereas, even if I got a second save thanks to Persistent Refusal, the chances of the character in an E6 game making the save is low.

Automatic Success for a Standard Action that takes 1 turn to refresh
or
Up to 8 extra attempted saves per "rest" period for a swift action with no guarantee of success and no ability to refresh in combat

If you still feel strongly about the ability being unbalanced then I'll swap it. I honestly just feel that in the context of what the character is supposed to do for the party. (Buff / Heal), being able to make the saves and continue doing his job would not become that unbalancing.

....

'm guessing Persistent Refusal is still a no go Fil?

Just asking so if it needs to change I can swap the feat b4 game starts.

Sorry-- missed this along the way.
It is still a "No". It may seem insignificant to you, but to me it's important.

The rest below is a rather lengthy dissertation about my philosophies as a DM that is hopefully worth reading.



Yes, higher-order actions can be swapped for lower order actions as needed... so you could theoretically have 3 swift actions in a round if you sacrifice your move and standard actions.
And no, having 8 rerolls per rest does not help (most characters have to blow an AP for a similar opportunity)
.. and as the team buff/heal machine, being disabled is a significant threat only because it prevents you from providing the buffs and heals. IF disabled, IHS guarantees at least one round of being disabled, while PR with IHS lessens the likelihood of a single round skipped.

My perspective is this:
you are going to win. There are 6 on the team, and I can't kill any of you unless you allow it.
As a DM, the only thing I can do is slow you down, trip you up and distract you from your goals until you find a solid route to achieve your current goal.
In that spirit, I feel PR undermines that objective by providing "Free" AP that should be a hard decision to use, and potentially preventing the need to use IHS at all-- forcing you to use IHS is a measurable objective that I can achieve to create pressure on the team, and you personally.

Hopefully this is worthwhile insight to everyone as to why I do what I allow and don't. I can't guarantee this tone will be provided evenly across all issues, but I try to.
For example, Spike's insane AC requires him to move into the space of a single target that is the only one this round having to deal with the massive AC. This means Spike is dealing with one target at a time. As long as I provide more targets than spike, or a single target that can survive longer than one round, I am effectively challenging spike's build design.

.. and I got carried away again. I'll just stop now.

[Eviltedzies]

Hmm interesting. I can understand your reasoning Fil.

I always find that my mindset changes depending on whether I am a player or a DM.

As a DM I tend to not allow nearly as many things as I as a player would want.

So I'll swap it out for something else shortly.

[Sir Alex]

Here are a few last comments about people's sheets. Note that I'm no expert on all the PrCs and combos people are doing. This is what I noticed just skimming over the characters:

Brunner:
- I'm trying to figure out how you got 17 skill points/level for a total of 102 at level 6. And that's not including the in-class skill bonuses.
- I believe one base saving throw should be 2. My understanding was we all had to have 5/2/5 base saves, where we could pick where the 2 went. Or did monks get an exemption from that rule?

Rhoma:
- Again, the 5/2/5 base saves rule should apply?
- Pick some languages
- Are you going to spend all that extra money on something, or does Rhoma simply enjoy sleeping on a mound of gold coins?

Daergel:
- Might be nice to list all the skills, so you know at a glance what your modifier is for Ride, Survival, etc

Marius:
- Still nothing in your inventory. Or is that how you roll? Naked highlands berserker?
- Base saves should be 5/2/5, as noted above for others
- I love that your spells complement Aribel's. Not sure what you'll use Reduce Person for, though. An offensive curse? Or just so we can all ride the griffon?

Thornton
- Really interesting build. I'd have to do way more research to fully understand it. As it is, my buckles are swashed.
- Looks like you opted for the 3.5 skill point sheet but tallied up your actual ranks in another place. Cool.
- Only thing I'd question is your Swift Manifest and Immediate Manifest options, which you've listed as 7pp. I though the number of pp you could spend on a single manifestation (augmented or not) was limited by your caster level. So you could only spend 6pp on any one manifestation?

[Battlechaser]

The monk gets a +2 bonus on its dismal save.

Skills: I added skills for every class I took. Monk also grants 8 + int, so 11 per level.

[Sir Alex]

Ok, maybe it's my own confusion then. Every time we take a class level, we get skill points for that level? Even if we had 20 class levels?

I thought you just take whatever gives the most skill points for each of you 6 "real" levels. Exactly how we've been doing hit points. So if you had fighter 6/monk 6, you'd just get the (8+int)x6 from monk and leave it at that?

[Eviltedzies]

Marius:
- Still nothing in your inventory. Or is that how you roll? Naked highlands berserker?
- Base saves should be 5/2/5, as noted above for others
- I love that your spells complement Aribel's. Not sure what you'll use Reduce Person for, though. An offensive curse? Or just so we can all ride the griffon?

Fixed the save issue on my sheet. As for Reduce Person, I was actually intending to use it as a buff since it boosts AC and Attack rolls. After just now noticing that I can't channel it through my weave I might change it out for something else.

As for skills: I also have been operating under the "The the best 6 levels for skill points" route. I have also been operating under he assumption that the max ranks we can have in a skill is equal to our Hit Dice unless we take the "Skill Beyond Your Years" feat.

[Admin Dirk]

Originally Posted by Sir Alex

Here are a few last comments about people's sheets. Note that I'm no expert on all the PrCs and combos people are doing. This is what I noticed just skimming over the characters:

Rhoma:
- Again, the 5/2/5 base saves rule should apply?
- Pick some languages
- Are you going to spend all that extra money on something, or does Rhoma simply enjoy sleeping on a mound of gold coins?

Rhoma has Monk levels, so she gets a +2 to her weakest save, which in theory is reflex. That gives her a 5/4/5 base (plus mods). Ironically for a wizard/witch, it turns out that will is her worst save.

I'll look up the language rules and see what I can get/afford.

And yes, she's not spending everything she has. She's saving for something nicer.