So what I’ve done, because stupidly I hadn’t before, is included a link to world info stuff at the bottom of the initial post. That’ll give you a sense of races in the world, maps, home rules, player conduct, current players and characters, and the whole deal with magic in my world. If you’ve got questions about specific organizations, races you don’t see, or other tidbits of info, feel free to ask!
One last question on Race and Class... Do you consider Tabaxi an official Race to use? I see your Ad says we can use anything official, though your info link doesn't list it.
__________________ Status: Game On
Took the Oath of Sangus
Last edited by MeredithS; Mar 8th, 2019 at 04:00 PM.
So. I think I ended up booking out of the original run when I went silent... Am I still viable to join? I have a hankering for playing a wild magic sorcerer... Haha.
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"You are superior in only one respect. You are better at dying!!"
Age: 99 Height: 5'11" Weight: 110 lbs. Eye Colour: Hazel Hair: Light Brown Skin: white Build: Taller then average, extremely lanky. Orbane is an awkward youth, prone to tripping over his own feet. Clothing and possessions: Orbane prefers nice clothing whenever possible. His favorite color is green. If he wears armor, he prefers to do so under his clothing. He especially likes hats, and has several that the alternates between. To compensate for his natural awkwardness, Orbane carries his oak staff everywhere he goes. This walking stick is intricately carved and stylized, a relic from his former life.
Personality: He's curious about the world around him. In several ways, he's lived what you would call a sheltered life. First, he was an elf, and isn't familiar with human ways. Then he's been a noble, and not familiar with some of the more unfortunate and dirtier aspects of civilization. Lastly, he's been a druid, so while he knows what cities are, they're not something he's really spent a lot of time in.
What you'd like to get from this game: It's really hard to find a game where the GM cares about your character. Usually you just get a situation where the GM has a story they want to tell or a plot they want to develop, and they want to drag your character along for the ride. I want there to be a story, but I want my character to be essential to it. I want a story where my character's actions and history affect how the story comes out, where he isn't interchangeable with the guy below me's application. It's my job to provide a character that grows throughout the story in more ways than just his character sheet.
How did you get here? Mostly by horseback, although I walked a bit.
Why have you come? My sister Lancele wants me dead! I observed her poisoning my parents - although I didn't realize it at the time, when they dropped dead I was able to piece things together. Before I could accuse her properly, she accused ME, and I ended up having to flee for my life.
When did it all start? You know, that's a really good question. I mean, was she always evil? Or did she just get impatient for her inheritance?
Who have you met along the way? I'm not really here to meet people, the idea is to keep a low profile. So I've stayed away from nobles and courts. Of course I've met a lot of common folk, which are always intriguing, but you didn't really want to hear about them, did you?
What is the point? The point? Well, staying alive is a pretty big point. I'd like a little revenge for the whole murdering our mom and dad too. I don't know. I miss them. I wish everything could just go back to the way it was.
Where next? I don't really know. I'm far from home and I don't think I'm in danger of Lancele finding me here, but you never know. It's probably best to keep moving, I guess. I can't really go back home. I don't have any real evidence against Lancele, or any way of proving my innocence. I guess you could say I'm a wanted criminal. That seems weird to think about.
Orbane is from a arboreal elven kingdom where they practice druidic living. Meaning they aren't farming the land like humans do, instead they're eating products of the forest that they don't have to cultivate. His class is not abnormal for his culture. I don't know your world well enough to identify an elven forest like this, I was thinking Kel'roth sounds like an elven name. Corellon's Tear sounds like it might be elven too.
The Faedan house is ancient, but minor. They rule over a village of 400 people called Halstadt, and two other minor villages to the north and southeast. Most of the day to day operations were carried out by their appointed officers - ie, the head merchant, the marshal - who had to be approved by a council of elders. They also were responsible for organizing several secular holiday celebrations.
Orbane is the second of three children. Lancele (age 117) is his older sister, and he has a younger sister named Misshel(age 80). Normally, the eldest male would inherit, but if he's not eligible then the oldest daughter inherits. Thus Orbane being framed for his parents murder would pave the way for Lancele to become the house scion.
Orbane is not self-taught. There was a druidic circle in Halstadt that Orbane was a member of. He always felt that they were moving too slow, being too cautious... but now that he's seen a bit of the world he has really learned to appreciate the fundamentals. There's a lot of druids out there who do stuff and don't know why they're doing it. And there's a lot of people out there who don't understand what the druidic way of life is because they've listened to druids like these who don't know what they're talking about.
The world is much, much bigger than most people understand. There's a lot of risk involved in traveling from one location to another. Most people will never manage to travel outside the village they were born in. That's why it's so important that, if you are traveling, that you talk to the people you meet. Because in a way, when you do so you let them visit where you're from. The more we learn about different places, the more open our minds and the more options we have to solve the problems around us.
He'd like his past resolved. He wants his sister punished, his name cleared. He needs to know if the people back home that he cared about (ie, Misshel and Thessalia) are ok. And unbeknownst to him, he needs to stop Wordan's plans to exploit the land (ie, a mine?) in a way that isn't at all in harmony with the druidic way.
I'd like to see Orbane grow as a character. He's a noble and an elf, so he's gonna bit a bit arrogant. I hope that he'll get over that in time.
So, there was this girl in my village. Thessalia. She had this red hair that she used to braid up with green ribbons. We had something of a relationship. She wasn't rich, and her family wasn't connected, and my parents... I'm sure they would have planned for me to marry someone who was more of my station. I don't think anyone knew about us. She's probably married to some random peasant by now.
Unbeknownst to Orbane, Lancele was seduced by a human he is however able to pass himself off as a humanTiefling named Wordan. An ambitious warlock and master of enchantment, he suggested she murder her parents because they would never approve of their union. He's using her for power and fun. Lancele is mind controlled for much of her waking hours. Wordan seeks to exploit much of the natural resources that can be found around Halstadt.
Ingol Triiste 400 year old female druid who's the leader of the druidic circle that Orbane trained under. She's a potential ally, as she knows him very well and is unlikely to believe that he could kill his parents.
Fainde Quell Head merchant of Halstadt, appointed by Orbane's father. We were always on good terms. He's also Thessalia's uncle.
Wordan Kunst Brother-in-law. Architect of his parent's murder. Greedy and ambitious, he's using Lancele as a puppet while he seeks to turn the territory into his own personal fiefdom. Orbane has no idea this person exists.
Orbane is a culinary expert, especially with alcoholic beverages. This even extends to non-elvish fare. He can carry on a conversation about the relative virtues of dwarven ale, even though it's not his preference.
Orbane is paranoid about assassins (not entirely without reason). This manifests in an obsession about his hair (and facial hair). He feels compelled to change them, frequently. He wears a lot of hats. For some reason, this only applies to his neck up - he doesn't feel compelled to frequently throw away his clothes and buy new ones.
Orbane likes pets. This isn't always easy when he's traveling a lot.
Trait: I've enjoyed fine food, drink, and high society among the elite. Rough living grates on me.
Ideal: Noble Obligation. It is my duty to protect and care for the people of Halstadt.
Bond: Nothing is more important than the other members of my family.
Flaw In fact, the world does revolve around me.
When he was 31, Orbane was crossing a frozen lake when the ice broke. He nearly drowned. He's had this irrational fear of ice ever since.
Assassins. Orbane doesn't like getting shot or stabbed.
He hopes that things in Halstadt can be fixed. That he can return home and bring Lancele to justice. That his younger sister Misshel will be ok. That Thessalia will still be unmarried and that he can legitimize their relationship.
The forests near Halstadt are suffering from a blight (caused by boring beetles). Orbane hopes that during his travels he can find a cure for the blight and bring it home with him.
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We are men of action, lies do not become us.
Westley - The Princess Bride
Last edited by anamiac; Mar 15th, 2019 at 11:17 AM.
Name: Teffa "The Wild". Race: Half-elf. Class: Sorcerer (Wild Magic)
Alignment: Chaotic Good. Appearance: I'd write it out, but here's a pic instead!
Personality: Teffa is a firey, flirtatious, and free sort of young woman. She has a wild heart to match her brand of wild and unpredictable magic. She feels everything strongly, and with her whole being. But, as desperately mad as she can get, or drowned and lost in sorrow, she bounces back quickly. Her base level is a chipper and outgoing attitude.
Over all, Teffa yearns for freedom, excitement, and a life of adventure. What she will say about her childhood, is that it was very dull... and it is her greatest goal in life to no longer live that sort of life.
Background Title: Entertainer (Teffa is a dancer, a magician, and a fire swallower.)
Background Writeup:
Teffa maintains an overall level of silence and mystery regarding her past. She moves from town to town along the continent meeting people, and performing in dance halls, taverns, and public houses to pay her way. Keeping strong connections, and maintaining them over the course of time only makes things... complicated.
Further is her life complicated by a history of magical misfires. Teffa discovered her powers at a young age, and was never properly taught how to use them. Even self-taught is generous in some respects. She grew up learning to go with the wild flow of nature as it coursed through her. Sometimes when her emotions get the better of her, or when she finds herself under stress, he magic, like her personality, tends to go wild. On more than one occasion, the young half elf's tongue and her firey magic have sent her off on the run again. One day, the law might even catch up to her.
What you'd like to get from this game: It's probably no shock given the kind of character I'm writing up that I'm looking for something a little lighter. Or at least to play a character that's a little lighter. I tend to play more serious, and stern characters... so this is a bit of fresh air for me.
1: How did you get here? The same way I get everywhere! Hitched a ride with a caravan headed out of the last village I worked in! Nice folk, that lot! 2: Why have you come? To find work! Tell me, are you looking for entertainers?! 3: When did it all start? I've been on the road since I was... hmm... It's been a few years since I left home! 4: Who have you met along the way? All kinds of people! Friendly folks, mostly! Sometimes a bit... too friendly. But I like most people... 5: What is the point? Adventure! No... really! And coin! To continue on the road! I'm after a life of excitement! 6: Where next? We'll see how long I stay here... and maybe after a while, I'll catch the first caravan on a bright and sunny morning that's willing to have me along! Don't care where too... so long as it's exciting!
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"You are superior in only one respect. You are better at dying!!"
Last edited by Ganguropocky; Mar 9th, 2019 at 01:33 AM.
Baldur Haldar Race: Half-Orc l Class: Barbarian 2 l Alignment: Chaotic Good
Age: 37 Height: 6'2" Weight: 245 lbs. Eye Colour: Dark Brown Hair: Dark Brown/Black Skin: Gray-Blue Build: Wide frame, muscled build Special Features: Baldur has long sharp teeth that protrude from his mouth, his hair is wrapped tightly into a long braid that reaches down past his shoulders to the middle of his back. He has a dark five o'clock shadow beard growing on his face. He has a number of scars and markings over his entire body, the markings are symbols of his people, if one could read orcish they would see that the markings are names, names of his ancestors, strong warriors that had long passed from this plane, they are intertwined with orcish arcane markings, that seems like a binding a spell to his body.
He doesn't have the natural rounded look on his face, instead it looks more narrowed and sharp, like that of a human. He wears little clothing, when you would look at him, he would just be wearing common, loose clothing, his shirt completely open, showing off his muscular chest and pants that are fashioned to look more like a kilt. Underneath his loose clothing are his battle clothing, leather pants that are wrapped from his calf to his ankles and feet but are covered by traveling leather boots. The only thing that is on his upper body is a long necklace with round rings attached to it, if someone were to look closely they would notice that it was made bones.
Baldur has the mindset of a survivor, he will do whatever needs to be done in order to gain the funds to buy good food, drink and mind altering substances. He does not have a place that he calls home and wanders from place to place for work, often hunting down dangerous men or women that have had bounties placed on them. He enjoys what he does and is good at what he does, but he doesn't really want this to be his life, he wishes for something more, to serve a higher purpose. But until that opportunity comes around he will do what he must to survive. He doesn't hold grudges towards those that are marked for death or capture, it is his job, and if they are still alive, often let's them know that. The only targets that he truly shows no mercy for, are murderers, those that kill others in cold blood, he thinks it as a life for a life, except he gets paid when he ends theirs.
He is always looking out to meet new people, people that he feels could aid him when needed. When not in combat he speaks calm and gently, his voice low and rugged, but calming. When angered or in a rage, it sounds much more guttural and can at times sounds like more than one voice comes out.
He also believes that trust is earned, and when it is earned, Baldur considers you a friend for life and will not hesitate to rush to their aid if it looks like they are in trouble.
Background Title: Urban Bounty Hunter
Baldur was born to a long lasting tribe of orcs and half-orcs that believed when one dies, they do not just pass onto another realm, but stay within this realm and act as guides to those that are willing to listen. Some were even able to speak to their ancestors directly when needed, as well as summon them to aid in battle.
As he grew up he was told great stories of his ancestors, he ate them up like they were a sweet candy, he wished to become like the great warriors that he heard in the tales of his people. So he trained, fought, learned to track, and became a pretty decent warrior. He also learned the spiritual ways of his people, their rituals, traditions and beliefs, he thought it fascinating to speak to those that had passed on. The amount of knowledge one could gain with the insights of those that had already lived their full lives.
When Baldur reached adulthood and completed the rituals of his people in order to be considered an adult he was able to take part in the binding ritual. A ritual that allowed a number of spirits to be bound to one person, it was created to have a direct link to their ancestors and allow those chosen to be bound to him aid in guiding his life. In total 5 different spirits were bound to Baldur, one of them barbarian warriors like himself, one ranger, one wizard, one fighter and one paladin. If he had known what he was getting into though, he would have never had them placed on him in the first place.
Before his training could begin with his elders about controlling the bond of his spirits, they were attacked by a rival clan. They broke the sacred code of peace during these rituals, as much as he wished to fight to the death a great feeling came over him to run. This battle was lost and revenge would only come if some survived. As much as he fought it, it overwhelmed him, and he took off to find safety. He cursed his human blood, as he hid in a cave he found and stayed the night there. He tried to sleep, but whenever he closed his eyes, voices would roar in his head. Some of the condeming him for running, others saying it was the smartest choice that could be made. He woke up, but saw no one there, it continued on through the night. It was his first experience woth the spirits bonded to him, and without the proper training he had no control over them yet.
It continued for days, no longer coming to him at night, but during the day as well, it nearly drove him mad, eventually, through what he could remember of talks from others he was at least able to shut them up during the day. And when he found civilization again he found that mind altering substances and alcohol were able to drown them out during the night. When he had that finally under control, he was able to begin his plan for revenge. For all he knew he was the the only one to survive, but knew that he had to at least try to look and see if he could find any others. He also knew that he needed funds and allies to get his revenge. A good way of doing so was to help others, gain their trust and then ask for their help when the time was right. Bounty hunting was a good way of doing so, his skills would allow him to do that kind of work. It would also allow him to get as far away as he could, in case he was still being hunted down, it was better to be safe than sorry.
So he found and was accepted to a small party and learned the trade of becoming a bounty hunter, often having to do most of the grunt work, and paid little for his efforts. But experience was what he was really needing and for the next few years he felt that he had gotten enough. He left the party to begin doing it on his own, going after small time criminals, doing other labour jobs, whatever he could get, he took and did it to the best of his ability. It has brought him over to many different places and seen many different people, he has been able to make connections wherever he goes, but has yet to find people that he finds worthy of joining in his revenge.
The one thing that he has issues with is when on a hunt for a bounty, he will do it sober, but by doing so the voices make their way back into his head, scrutinizing him and urging him to rush to get revenge. He has figured out by trying to speak with them that he needs to prove himself worthy for them to listen, but they have somewhat agreed (at least the more intelligent ones) that they should not all speak at the same time, or nothing would get accomplished. But most of the time, the warriors often and loudly speak their opinion, but he knows that in time they will be mastered and he will be able to carry on the legacy of his destroyed tribe.
What you'd like to get from this game:
Take these questions as being asked by either a Bar-keep/shop-keep/or whatever general NPC you wish (for your immersion purposes).
1: How did you get here? My work often makes me travel from place to place, I often take passenger carriages to locations, it gives me a chance to relax, prepare and ask questions about where I am headed. It is often my goal to make a friend out of these people, because they often get a large quantity of unique people, it is good to have them in your pocket when on the hunt.
2: Why have you come? My work has brought me here, I had just recently captured and returned a petty thief that thought that he was quick and clever enough to evade law enforcement after stealing from a noble family. He came to here, thought he could get lost in this place, but I found him, captured him and collected my money, after some rest and relaxation I am looking for more work. I hear that someone has gone missing recently, I don't often do search and rescues, but if the money is good enough and have the potential to gain some allies, it would be worth it I guess.
3: When did it all start? Listen, I don't often like to give out such information but the work that I am doing is to serve a higher purpose, my people, my clan was decimated a while back by a tribe of no good, worthless pieces of... sorry, sorry, sometimes I lose it a little bit when I talk about it. It was a rival tribe, their not from around here so don't worry about them coming here. I survived, joined a band of bounty hunters, learned from them, then went on my own and here I am now.
4: Who have you met along the way? Sir, in my line of work you meet a great many people, let me think. Do you know Reginald? The carriage driver that comes in and drops off new people here. Well I have made good friends with him, as well as some others that do that same line of work, good man, loves to talk, helps drown out the other voices. Oh, sorry, never mind that last thing I said. Um, who else have I met? I have met some of the local shop owners, Jan, an alchemist and potions seller, Derrick, a clothing outfitter, quite nice clothes, should think of going there some time. I also know Galvoran, one of the law enforcement workers here, a rough fellow, dwarf, doesn't talk a lot, but gave me my money when I brought in my bounty so he's good in my books. The list goes on and on my friend, sorry if it is boring you.
5: What is the point? We are all driven by something to do what we do, me, for example plan to get revenge on the clan that eliminated mine and left me with a bit of a burden, I don't feel like explaining it, but let me tell you I would be much more cheery if they hadn't of done that. The funding, experience and alliances I gain from my work is what will let me get to this point.
6: Where next? I plan on sticking around for a bit here, there is always work in cities like this, do you mind on pointing me in the right direction of where to find some work? It doesn't matter what kind it is, as long as it pays well, maybe you could tell me more about this search and rescue mission that keeps slipping out of people's mouths. I'll even give you some of the coin I get from completing it, eh? What do you say?
And finally, some tools to help you along in creating your character in this world:
Step 1:Write 5 background and concept elements that you feel are important to your image of the character. One of these should include where they are from.
BG 1: He belonged to a clan called Rekem that lived at the base of a mountian called Hakum, but it was destroyed by a rival clan known as the Rasoman, their beliefs in spirituality are what separated them, preferring acts of necromancy to speak to the dead, even use them in battle. Their differences of opinion changed from words to action, action that led to the demise of the Hakum clan.
BG 2: He learned the trade of bounty hunter when he was in his ealry 20's and continues with his trade to this day, he had gotteb good at what he does, but believes that he can be so much more.
BG 3: The spirits that are bound to Baldur are Galdo the Barbarian Warrior, best known for slaying several demons with his bare hands. Ordun the Wizard, known for killing an entire raiding party with a single fireball. Ashen the Ranger, known to be one of the elite tracker/hunters of his time. Shaka the Fighter, a duelist who's sword and shield were feared across the land. And Durreg the Paladin, his acts of heroism, valour and courage are told through tales of old to this day.
BG 4: He suffers from hearing the spirits of the dead speaking to him in his head at night, trying to get him to listen, at first they were just screams and shouts, but now take turns scolding him, telling him what he needs to do and how to do it. Only through drugs, alcohol or gaining experience and learning to control them or gain their respect can give him peace.
BG 5: He feels in his gut that there are other survivors of his clan out in the world, he just doesn't know where to start looking and has found no trace of them during his travels. He keeps his hopes alive, but is prepared for the worst.
Step 2:List at least two goals for the character.
At least one of these goals should be one that the character has, while another should be one that you, as a player, want to see developed over the course of the game.
Goal 1: Baldur wishes to master the control over the spirits that are bound to him, gain their trust, knowledge and power. By doing so will unlock his true potential and allow him his revenge on those that had done wrong to him in the past.
Goal 2: I personally would like to see how this character develops in this world, he has the potential to be unique and interesting as he grows. I would like the DM to have control of the spirits when he has the power to, or speak to him in his dreams, small moments where he has a one on one with one of them or all of them as a group, that is up to you.
Step 3:List at least two secrets about your character.
At least one is a secret the character knows, while another is a secret that involves them but that they are not actually aware of yet. In general I'd like these secrets to be available for all players to see, but if there's something you REALLY want left in the dark, then please consult with me.
Secret 1: Known: He is beginning to think that someone within his own clan had set them up, no one would have known about the time of the ritual except for the people that were part of the clan, but he doesn't have the faintest idea who.
Secret 2: Unknown: It was his own father that betrayed the clan, a high ranking member of the clan, he did it to get another high ranking position with the rival clan, but the real reason that he did it was for his wife, Baldur's mother, who had died years before the attack. He wanted more than just a spirit to speak to when he needed it, he wanted her fully back and the rival clan had the magic and the means to do so. Even if it was in another body, she would be with him again. He now lives with the enemy with whatever abomination that has been created to be his once dead wife.
Step 4:Describe at least three people that are tied to the character.
Two of them are friendly to the character. One is hostile.
Tied 1 (Friendly): Kavaran Garant: Male Human informant and friend, he is a new friend of Baldur's that he had made in the city during his downtime, a shop owner of miscellaneous items and nick knacks that people might need. He is very charismatic, kind, but a business man and knows how to haggle a deal out of damn near anyone. Baldur will often recommend people to go to his shop and buy his goods, and in exchange he will give Baldur information about the goings on in the city.
Tied 2 (Friendly): Hilda Karam: Gnome Female, Alchemist and friend, she is a young alchemist that has a wide imagination and a great understanding of herbs and chemicals, he found her when he was looking to have his mind put at ease from the voices that were constantly shouting at him. She was able to make him drinks and smoking items in order to shut them out and let his mind have some peace, she is getting better at having them not have such strong intoxicating effects, but he still has to be careful when he takes them. He had built a friendship with her and told her of his situation, which intrigues her greatly and wishes to study him, he doesn't mind, because he feels that it will help him in the long run to understand how to control them.
Tied 3 (Hostile): Saresh Farem: Female Orc Fighter, Saresh is from the rival clan that destroyed Baldur's home and people, she has a great hate for his kind and wishes nothing but to dispose all of them. She had been assigned to hunt down Baldur as well as any others that she may come across, she was informed by Baldur's father what he looks like and what markings to look for. She, as well as a band of others had picked up on the scent of Baldur and are now on the hunt for his head.
Step 5:Describe three memories, mannerisms, or quirks that your character has.
They don’t have to be elaborate, but they should provide some context and flavour.
MeMoQui 1: Instead of asking for the gods aid or blessings he doesn't speak to the gods, but speaks to his ancestors, as annoying as they are, they are still his guides and he often asks for their help when he needs it.
MeMoQui 2: He talks in his sleep when he isn't intoxicated, either speaking common and sometimes orcish, it will seem like he is speaking to someone else, or a group of others. When awoken he will often apologize and stay up for the rest of the night.
MeMoQui 3: He will always remember witnessing the death of many of his people, how they were slaughtered by their rivals and reduced to the point that he believes that he is the last of his clan.
Step 6:List your character’s personality traits, bonds, ideals, and flaws.
These can come from the book (either directly or as a guide) or you can make them up to fit your concept of your character.
Personality Trait: It needn't be hunting down a mark - I'll chop firewood for an old woman if there's pay involved. I frequently move from town to town, eager to pursue new marks and seek new contacts.
Ideal: Ambiguity This job's just a job, like any other. Nothing personal against my targets. (Neutral)
Bond: Though my friends are few, I owe them my life many times over, and would happily die for them.
Flaws: Contract or not, I never bring murder bounties back alive. They showed no mercy, and so neither will I. I am also haunted by spirits and as of now, only drink and drugs can stop those voices. I also sometimes talk in my sleep.
Step 7:List at least two things/events that make your character afraid, and at least two things/events that give your character hope.
Fear 1: He fears that he will never gain the respect and control of the spirits that are bound to him, without the proper teachings, he is not sure what he needs to do, and fears that the voices will drive him into madness.
Fear 2: He fears that he carries the burden of his clan on his shoulders, he does not know if he is the only one left and it scares him that he will never see another one of his brothers or sisters again and that he is truly alone in this world.
Hope 1: He hopes to find others of his clan that were also able to escape the attack, to unite them once again and start anew.
Hope 2: He hopes to gain the trust and respect of the spirits within him and become what is clan aspires to be, one with the spirits, in battle and in life.
Last edited by The Dark Star; Mar 13th, 2019 at 03:12 PM.
I'm looking to build a minotaur warlock, who pledged himself to a volcano demon in order to save his tribe. Its going to be a bit of a Moana vibe I fear since my kid is obsessed with that movie at the moment .
@Swagbag: You could definitely look into that, but I will warn you we have a Minotaur, Pacific-Islander type pirate warlock with the fiend patron... not in the same group mind you, but may be re-treading some ground there.