[OOC] The Cantina

[ruffdove]

That's--*does math*--31 hit points in a single blow, enough to kill him twice. To bad you can't save some of those those to use against the CR20 Void Demon around the next corner (just kidding... or am I?).

[Runetide]

Originally Posted by ruffdove

That's--*does math*--31 hit points in a single blow, enough to kill him twice. To bad you can't save some of those those to use against the CR20 Void Demon around the next corner (just kidding... or am I?).

I mean... he would have at least *felt* the hit, right? :P

[Unko Talok]

I'm loving the manic, CN style of Vette at the moment. Oh and also all the blood, but don't tell T'aro that!

[Lord99]

Okay, so I just want to double check before I write anything up - Mendev's called for Kursk to pin the enemy down (which isn't a bad idea at all, no matter how grumpy it would make Kursk), but is there actually an action I can undertake to do that? I've been through the combat section looking for anything that would allow me to keep an enemy from moving with some sort of shooting maneuver (like Harrying or Cover fire), but I'm not seeing anything.

Thank you for any advice!

[ruffdove]

Hmm.

As far as I know there is no way to shoot in such a way as to make it impossible for someone to get up and move, but it is certainly possible to make it highly inadvisable for a person to do that. It all kind of depends on what kind of stuff the guy you are shooting at is made of... Willpower?

Why don't we make something up on the fly and call it Pinning Fire. You make an attack roll and that modified roll becomes a DC for the target's Will save. If the target passes the Will save, they may move as normal. If they fail, they may not move except at a prone crawl in the next combat round (they may return fire though).

So if your attack is a natch 20, assume you put your plasma bolt so close over his back that the short hairs on his neck singed. In reality, if someone missed you that close, your body might not even listen to you if you told it to get up and go. But if your attack is low, your shot missed by enough that the guy figures he can chance it. Warning: if you roll anything but a natural 20, I am going to also give him a perception check to notice that your bolter isn't cycling because it's your last shot on that battery (everyone assume your weapon came with two charged batteries, btw). If he passes that perception check, he's free to move, even if he failed the Will check.

Sound good?

EDIT: Perception check DC will be same as the Will save DC.
EDIT EDIT: No promises on what might happen on a critical failure...

[Lord99]

Pinning Fire Well! I certainly didn't mean to prompt you to create a whole additional action - although suppression is a big part of firefights, so it makes sense for such an action to exist. First off: just to be clear, you're the GM, what you say goes, no disrespect intended, etc. - but I would like to share some thoughts for consideration, since this is a new action being whipped up. Rather than the complexity of the perception check and any accompanying discussion over how loud or distracting an environment is, which weapons are louder to load or quieter, whether it's easier or harder to hear someone from 5 squares or 20 squares, etc., why not just apply a sliding penalty to the initial pin based on the firing weapon type? Unwieldy or otherwise single-shot weapons take -4, normal weapons take -2, and automatic weapons take no penalty? That way enemies are most easily pinned by the sort of weapons that can hose down an area, and the slower-firing weapons make it harder. There is the argument about the fear of a near-miss, but things are always a compromise between realism and abstracted mechanics. So, to sum up, my iteration for this Pinning Fire: - Actor declares that they're doing Pinning Fire as a Standard Action, selecting a target - Actor rolls an attack, with a -4 if their weapon is Unwieldy, -2 if neither Unwieldy nor Automatic, and -0 if Automatic. No modifiers due to range, cover, etc. apply, although the target must be in range, line of sight, etc. (since the attack is based on fear, not on actual effectiveness). One normal attack's worth of ammunition is expended. - If target wants to move during their next round, they must make a Will save with a DC equal to the actor's roll. On a success, they may move, on a failure, they may only crawl. - Effect expires at the start of the actor's next round or when the target passes a Will save prompted by this action - Any spell/ability/effect that forces the target to move is unaffected, while any that allow the target to move prompt the Will save upon the target's decision to attempt to move. How does that sound?

Separately, on the ammo thing - I'd assumed that all weapons came with one full magazine (whether fuel, battery, rounds, etc.) - but if energy weapons get an extra free battery, do other weapon types get an extra free magazine of ammo? That would seem to be fair, rather than favoring energy weapon wielders?

[ruffdove]

It definitely makes sense for unwieldy and single shot to be less effective, so yes, go ahead and use those modifiers. If we like this rule and use it in the future, I would add that automatic weapons should expend their ammo just like an automatic attack (i.e., you're empty). If you're going to get the benefit of full auto it should cost the normal cost for firing full auto. Apart from that I think we're more or less were thinking the same thing though I agree with your clarifications (standard action, duration, expiration, etc).

Go ahead and give it a try.

All weapons come with two full magazines/batteries. I don't have the rule book with me, but I believe that is actually in the rules. I'll look it up tomorrow morning to verify. I believe Kursk is the only one for whom it will matter because that plasma bolter's an ammo pig.

[Runetide]

Originally Posted by Unko Talok

I'm loving the manic, CN style of Vette at the moment. Oh and also all the blood, but don't tell T'aro that!

She's CG, actually... but has been essentially raised by space pirates. Her internal compass means well, but she's been only taught all the wrong methods. Like, she's gonna cheerfully slaughter a bunch of dudes but also in the same five minutes try to comfort a child that had been scared by the gunfire.

Well that and she's just brutally efficient about her job (which was point orc on the boarding party) so she could survive. They had made it no small point how easily they could replace her slave butt. Had to adapt to survive that environment and she's been a free person for like, 2 weeks, tops.

So I did some checking in the SRD and could only find two kinds of 'suppressing fire' maneuvers:

Originally Posted by Starfinder SRD

Covering Fire: You can use your standard action to make a ranged attack that provides covering fire for an ally. Make a ranged attack roll against AC 15. If you hit, you deal no damage but the selected ally gains a +2 circumstance bonus to AC against the next attack from a creature in your line of effect (see page 271), so long as that attack occurs before your next turn.

Harrying FireYou can use your standard action to make a ranged attack that distracts a foe in your line of effect. Make an attack roll against AC 15. If you hit, you deal no damage, but the next ally to attack that foe gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her next attack roll, as long as that attack occurs before your next turn.

So something that uses rules language ALONG those lines that say, reduces their movement speed by a set amount (say, 5 feet, plus 5 feet per 5 over the DC you made on your roll?) would be mechanics that fit within Starfinder's pre-existing ruleset and doesn't fully interfere with other character's possible abilities. The current iteration of pinning fire would be really harsh. Soldiers don't get a high will save and completely shutting down movement would totally nuke Solarians or Blitz Soldiers like me.

[Khalil]

Yeah, when I was typing the post, I knew what I wish would happen, wasn't sure if there was a mechanic for it. I suppose Mendev would prefer a Harrying fire to better help my chance to land a non lethal shot.

[ruffdove]

Okay guys, I don't want to get too bogged down with this. When I came up with a ruling here, it wasn't necessarily my intention to keep the rule and set it in stone. This is a quick and dirty mechanic for a player to try something not covered by the rules. Playing table top, rulings like this are made and forgotten all the time. If we want to work on a more permanent type of rule for this we can sort it out later. For now, Lord99, make your attack roll and Ganger D will make his Will save and we'll see what happens.

[Khalil]

Yeah, that's fine. Harrying fire would work to.

[Lord99]

Sorry about the delay, it was one of those "I'll definitely have time to post tomorrow" weekends.

Alright, took the special shot, although I'm not sure how the Perception thing will interact with the fact there's a fresh battery in it now.

[Unko Talok]

One last reminder that I'm heading out of town today. Returning late on Friday. I'll have a laptop and access to the site, but no promises on how quickly I'll be able to respond.

[ruffdove]

No worries on the delay Lord99 (or the possible impending delays, Unko). As cool as it was that we sailed quick through this combat, that rate of posting won't be the norm.

We will play with that pinning rule for the rest of this combat (can't change the rules mid-fight... well, I can, but I don't feel like it's right), but ultimately I don't think it passes the long-term use test. I've worked up a rules tweak to Harrying Fire that should cover it and eliminate the Will save. Will add them to the House rules thread when I have time.

I've decided that perception checks to detect if the other guy's battery is empty was a dumb idea. Lord99 mentioned the sound of the weapon cycling, which was cool from a descriptive standpoint so I won't attach a mechanic to it. That said, opponents of high intelligence just might keep count. These opponents are not of especially high intelligence--especially Ganger D as you've no doubt noted.

[ruffdove]

Nice shot, Khalil! There's just one ganger left, Purple B, the half-orc with the hunting rifle in the corridor to the east.

Also, when you get a chance, check out the House Rules thread. From now on when you use harrying fire, you have a choice of giving the target a -2 AC the next time he is attacked (as in the rules), a -2 to his next attack or skill check roll, or -10 feet to his next move, unless he crawls.