build new chars here

[Fil kearney]

build em here. i'll get you in the wiki later.

[Amy]

StoneChild: str 8, dex 0, con 8, int 2, wis 0, cha -2
Deva: Str 12, Dex 8, Con 8, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 10
Stone Giant: Str 16, Dex 4, Con 8, Int 0, Wis 2, Cha 0
Half Dragon: Str 8, Con 2, Int 2, Cha 2

str: 18/16 pts + 8 (sc) +12 (deva) +16 (sg) + 8 (dr) = 62
dex: 14/6 pts +8 (deva) +4 (sg) = 26
con: 16/10 pts +8 (sc) +8 (deva) +8 (sg) +2 (dr) = 42
int: 8/0 pts +2 (sc) +8 (deva) +2 (dr) = 20
wis: 10/2 pts +8 (deva) +2 (sg) = 20
cha: 10/2 pts -2 (sc) +10 (deva) +2 (dr) = 20

[roaddog41]

Okay so after reading through swordsage a bit... I think Im gonna reduce my levels of shadow dancer a bit for now....
so my build will be monk 14//swordsage10/shadowdancer 4

Stats
str 12 (4)
dex 14 (6) +2 racial, +1 4th level, +1 8th lvl=18
con 12 (4)
int 10 (2)
wis 17 (13) +1 12th level=18
cha 14 (6)
should have 9+13d8+13 HP
BA=+10/+5
base saves all at +9
skills= 6*17=95 skills
should get 5 feats...
SAs
-monk= AC bonus,improved unarmed strike(b), 3 bonus feats(stunning fist, combat reflexes, improved trip), flurry of blows(+10/+10/+10/+5), evasion, fast movement +40 ft, still mind, Ki strike (magic, lawful), slow fall 70ft, purity of body, wholeness of body, improved evasion, diamond body, greater flurry, abundant step, diamond soul
-Sword sage= quick to act +3, discipline focus (3 of em), AC bonus,sense magic
-Shadowdancer=Hide in plain sight, darkvision, uncanny dodge, shadow illusion, summon shadow, shadow jump 20ft
15 maeuvers known, 8 readied
4 stances known
unarmed damage=2d6



Now a couple quick questions....
1) do the AC bonuses from monk and sword sage stack... basically it would add twice my wisdom score +2 to my AC..... so 2without enhancement a +10 to AC that is pure insight.
2) right now Im probably gonna focus on Desert wind and Diamond mind for my disciplines..... maybe mix in some tiger claw..... not sure though. The whole charge 140 feet and then make a full attack is really appealing. As is the picture of an elf jumping on top of a giant and basically crushing its skull. Any suggestions on specific maneuvers that might be particularly awesome to take?
3) any suggestions on templates I might purchase that would help out... I have access to alot of books... but don't have the time to read them that often. Plus Im terrible at power gaming.

[Amy]

Originally Posted by roaddog41

As is the picture of an elf jumping on top of a giant and basically crushing its skull.

Kristine is hereby required to stay at least 141' from me...

[Ascendant]

Originally Posted by roaddog41

1) do the AC bonuses from monk and sword sage stack... basically it would add twice my wisdom score +2 to my AC..... so 2without enhancement a +10 to AC that is pure insight.
2) right now Im probably gonna focus on Desert wind and Diamond mind for my disciplines..... maybe mix in some tiger claw..... not sure though. The whole charge 140 feet and then make a full attack is really appealing. As is the picture of an elf jumping on top of a giant and basically crushing its skull. Any suggestions on specific maneuvers that might be particularly awesome to take?

1) These bonuses do not stack. I wish I could remember the exact place I saw this, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the official DnD rules FAQ.

2) maneuvers: The Diamond Mind counters that replace saves are pretty awesome, if you have the skill points to invest in Concentration (which you should, we are after all gestalt). Tiger Claw can be kind of annoying, because you'll probably have to take some fairly useless maneuvers to meet prerequisites for others. That being said, Sudden Leap is basically pure win on a monk, since all your speed boosts grant you insane Jump bonuses. Use Sudden Leap to get a free quick move, then use your charging powers once you have a good angle.

And some questions of my own:

A) In this hybrid psywarrior/soulknife class you're using, Fil, which class's base save bonuses ought I use? I would really prefer the Soulknife saves if I have a choice, because that fills in the gaps a lot nicer.

B) I think I'd like to take the Eternal Blade prestige class from Tome of Battle, which is normally available to elves. I think I recall you saying that prestige class requirements could be relaxed for this campaign, so could I just have an Eternal Blade who is a kalashtar? The idea of a guiding "spirit being" certainly isn't too far a stretch for a kalashtar, considering they're already possessed by otherworldly spirits as it is.

C) How is all this stuff working with the LA buyoff? Are we allowed to add on some Level Adjustments on top of our normal class levels, or is it just the standard practice of switching out 1 level of a class for a +1 LA template, etc.?

And AxeMan, that STR score scares the bejeezus out of me. I think that's the kind of thing that makes the DM throw insanely powerful monsters at us just to be able to challenge you . . .

[Amy]

I would feel better about it if anyone with Gestalt expertise would confirm it. I've been reading some of the Wiki in this and I feel truly stupid.

[Ascendant]

Well, this campaign is already playing fairly fast and loose with the rules, which is fine, but it means my knowledge of RAW is of little use here. I mean, normally you can only have one race, and you can use that race to take up half of your gestalt progression alongside a class. You have at least two races going simultaneously, possibly three. I've never seen that before, so I'm a bit out of my depth.

[Amy]

[roaddog41]

wow Axe.... 62 str without something fun like a belt of giant strength or the like. I would hate to see what your gonna be throwing... A javelin with a +26 to damage....

[Ascendant]

[Amy]

I figured that strength and hit points by themselves would be relatively impotent...

I just want someone within the game to advise...

[DaveTheMagicWease]

I wouldn't worry too much about those physical stats - the loss of class features balances it out imo. In fact, if anything I'd say that you want to add a few more tricks up Rock's sleeve to keep him competitive (whether it be mobility, battlefield control, some kind of spellcasting/manifesting, whatever). Gwyn deals massive amounts of damage from all his stacking metamagic tricks and class abilities (can get into the hundreds when it all clicks) and Celestine's stats are basically a function of how far he wants to push the Planar Shepherd cheese.

It's a very high powered game. If you want a baseline take a look here - it hasn't been updated recently (those numbers are for level 12 I think), but that's an indication of what the various characters are capable of (and bear in mind none of those characters listed are particularly melee focused, and tend to have several buff spells/wild shape/ToB maneuvers to factor in when the fighting starts)

The Dungeoncrashing templated monstrosity that used to be in the party put those numbers to shame!

EDIT - found him - Aurok, Strength of Many - imagine him advanced a few levels and that's probably a better point of comparison for Rock.



In fil's game, iirc, LA takes up only one side of the gestalt.

However, on top of that fil has reduced and simplified the costs for LA buyoff, basically it works like this:

LA +1 = 3000 xp
LA +2 = 9000 xp
LA +3 = 18000 xp
etc

So you can comfortably buy off a couple of LA without it impacting your build in terms of class levels. Yes, its a power up, but cheap templates mainly helps the melee-ers rather than the casters since they get more out of the stat boosts on offer and have less to lose in terms of caster levels, so it actually works as a balancing factor.

@ roaddog:

1. There's an official ruling that Monk and Ninja don't stack, which is generally taken as being applicable to Swordsage as well, though afaik there isn't a ruling that addresses the Swordsage by name. But knowing fil I wouldn't bet against him disregarding that rule.

2. I'm generally not a fan of Desert Wind personally - tends to be weak imo (and to metagame a little, there have been a lot of outsiders in fils encounters so far, so fire resistance would likely be a problem for you). Diamond Mind is a good one for the counters, and its strikes do decent damage (although at this point in a gestalt game standard action strikes aren't likely to cut it - better to focus on getting off full-attacks with movement enhancing abilities like Sudden Leap, Moment of Alacrity, Pouncing Charge, etc. Shadow Hand has some good counters and movement focused maneuvers as well.

If you're willing to build around them with feat choices, high Str, etc then the Setting Sun throws have a lot of potential.

Have you seen the Unarmed Swordsage variant? Trades out armour proficiency for full monk unarmed damage. If I was you I'd drop the Monk levels entirely and just use Swordsage (imo the Swordsage is a better 'monk' anyway, maybe use Shou Disciple/similar if you want flurry or a specific class feature back). That would give you a lot of levels to play with - some sort of sneak attack build could work very well - a Shadow Hand focused build using Gloom Razor, Shadowdancer, etc to trigger the sneak attacks (and the rogue ACF to punch through sneak attack immunities), and then a truckload of counters to keep the opponents claws off of you. Drow of the Underdark has some very good stuff too (immediate action invisibility for monk, Dex to damage for a 1 level fighter dip, etc). And Telflammar Shadowlord never gets old...

And as another point - I would always suggest multiclassing with ToB, doubly so in a gestalt game - the extra pool of readied maneuvers (and more maneuvers known for meeting prerequisites) is a massive boost (i.e. it allows you to keep a good spread of counters readied while still having room for some more offensive tricks).

3. Templates depends on what stats you're focusing on. Dark creature (Tome of Magic) is excellent for stealth (altho it can be acquired with a magic item), Str boosting templates are ten a penny (Half Minotaur and Feral probably the best value), Mineral Warrior for survivability, Lolth-touched for physical stat boosts. Dex is harder to come by if that's the focus tho imx - half air or fire-elemental maybe?

Or, if you can somehow qualify for the Air Elemental template (Manual of the Planes again) then that would get you into Orglash from Unapproachable East which would be something a bit different. Really depends where you want to go with her...?

[roaddog41]

wow Dave you lost me on alot of that... and there is no way swordsage is a better monk... while they have similar attack skills..... Monk has so many defensive and immunities... that Im gonna stick with monk. Besides it fits the concept which is always more important to me....

Originally Posted by Dave

And as another point - I would always suggest multiclassing with ToB, doubly so in a gestalt game - the extra pool of readied maneuvers (and more maneuvers known for meeting prerequisites) is a massive boost (i.e. it allows you to keep a good spread of counters readied while still having room for some more offensive tricks).

You lost me form here on out.

Basically I want to boost her AC as much as possible... and then use the maneuvers to get her from point to point as quickly as possible..... and really take advantage of her superior number of attacks to wear away at opponents... kind of like a smoke screen type character that is all over the field defending the spellcasters that are the real damage output.

[Fil kearney]

Hey folks I'm home now... So i'll spend some time trying to answer some questions.

DOG
And of course, Dave is right. I will allow for ss and monk to stack ac bonuses...
but I want to readdress the Monks of Long Death you are potentially looking to enjoy. You can use maneuers from the book as is if you wish, but they also use spells as per arcane varient... this replaces the unarmed varient, (which the monk is covering) but you gain per encounter arcane spells sorceror and wu jen) up thorugh 9th level if you so please. This variant would allow for progression eithe by ToB PrC's or Spellcasting PrC's... like, abchamp would progress swordsage spell (maneuver) progression on top of bacha goodness... so you take shield and mage armour as spells/stances and get the boosts from it... thunderlance gives a 30 foot natural reach would be awful nice if you are progressing a PrC like enlightened fist

other spells to consider: giant size, greater mighty wallop, wraithstrike, celerity, timestop (not yet, but great for recovering spells!), disintegrate (with arcane fist) etc etc etc. you can use as many of the maneuvers for spells or reagular melee maneuvers as you wish. and the stances are convertible to spell slots as well. so that's potentially 24 spells known, 14 per encounter. and they can be recovered/adaptive styled as normal. You don't have to pursue this option if you don't want... but it's very flavorede to the Long Death monks, and I was looking for a way to playtest it anyway (tips my hand!)

Soething like
swordsage5/enlightenedfist9 // monk5/swordsage+1/x4/swordsage+1/x+3.... and then whatever you want from there.

By stilting swordsage levels like that, yer gonna have 7th level access to maneuvers/spells, and the enlightened fist gives full monk stuff progression (which is wicked with wallop spells) and frees up levels for shadowdancer or whatever.

Here's an idea:
swordsage5/enlightenedfist9/shadowsunninja6 // monk5/swordsage+1/shadowsunninja4/swordsage+5/enlightenedfist+1/swordsage+4

swordsage maneuvers + spells IL20 (in fact, a little extra, since shadow sun adds some extra)
FULL monk ability progression
FULL enlightened fist advancement
FULL shadow sun nnja advancement

worth considering. you could replace any of that with shadowdancer, but you'll sacrefice either monk progression or swordsage maneuver/spells.
or I can take a hike. lemme know.

[Fil kearney]

ASCENDANT

A) take soulknife.
B) There are no racial prereqs for feat or PrC's unless it makes no logical sense. So enjoy eternal blade as you wish.
C) Dave put it right for LA buyoff... Yer all starting with 96310xp... so you can be level 14 with one LA bought off for 3k, or you can be 13th level with 3LA bought off. LA oly takes one side of gestalt... which is a bit annoying because your build will shift around if you use LA buyoff... but whatever. you can take it or leave it.

Be welcome to put a build forward, and if you don't mind some tweaking, we can all have some fun for you rbenefit.