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  #31  
Old Jul 5th, 2014, 05:13 PM
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How do we work out boon points for class abilities? As for starting shouts, given that it's early in Revak's new career, and that he was found/taken only a little while after discovering what is, I figure he'd have two or three words of power. IE: 2 or 3 first word only shouts.

 


Also, idea on the gold front, make it scalable with level. 100-200 is impressive now, but in a couple levels not so much.
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  #32  
Old Jul 5th, 2014, 11:09 PM
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Yuul: I will have to convene with Shin. But I am thinking that for right now, we will give you Fus Ro Dah for free since that is the first one you learn in the game if I am not mistaken. And with the other shouts depending on what they do will determine how many boon points they cost. On the recharging front, may have it be a little longer than 1d4 rounds.

Dbaque: Well how about this, for 3 boon points I will be willing to give you fast healing 1 or make Hateful retort 3 + your wisdom modifier. But again, I need to rap with Shin before getting ahead.
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  #33  
Old Jul 5th, 2014, 11:35 PM
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To be fair, I had also thought that for each additional word used(up to the full three) we'd add a +1 so a +2 for a full strength shout. Kind of like meta breath feats for dragons. Minimum 3 round recharge time, or 18 seconds, and a max of 30 seconds. I'm just thinking of him shouting more than once in a moderately lengthy fight. Obviously his bow and sword are his main damage still though.
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Last edited by Yuul; Jul 5th, 2014 at 11:36 PM.
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  #34  
Old Jul 5th, 2014, 11:42 PM
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That does sound good to me and is fair.
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  #35  
Old Jul 5th, 2014, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenLantern View Post
@Eris: Although you are a telekinetic, I will also give you the options to purchase other plasmids with your boon points. Also I will allow you to augment previous plasmids. For example, if you take ignite it will do 2d6 fire damage and have a range of 15 feet. But you can use 3 boon points to increase the damage output to 3d6 and 2 boon points to increase the range to 30. Something along these lines. Again these are suggestions to better help everyone understand exactly what a boon point is.


Sounds good
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  #36  
Old Jul 6th, 2014, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern View Post
Sounds good to me, I agree this should be player driven. To help better scale the idea of what a boon point actually is, here are some examples you can use boon points for outside your world class.

1 boon point equal extra gold
2 boon points equal one extra skill point
3 boon points equal one extra HP
4 boon points equal a + 1 dodge bonus to AC
5 boon points equal a + 1 to any saving throws misc modifier

Higher boon point costs maybe extra attribute point or extra experience.

I hope that was able to to scale it if only a little.

@Kaji: I am probably going to treat your utility belt as a wondrous item. Basically I will try to combine your wealth dc for items but have it where you have limited slots. With boon points you can purchase gadgets now and later down the road as well as expand the number of slots you have with your utility belt. If you have any concerns about this, please let me know.
(...)
Also during the game you will come across items and new abilities that you can learn if you have the boon points. I was thinking about just giving you guys these items or abilities but thought that boon points will help balance somethings and actually give it a purpose to keep around. You will be rewarded boon points based on role playing during pivotal moments and combat performance during boss fights. But there will be other ways too.

Will this concept of boon points be okay for the time being? If not, we are totally up to suggestions. I at least want to give you guys a base to build up on so you can better understand boon points. Definitely will take in your guy's character concepts that you will like to build with boon points after we get the initial ball rolling. Does this sounds okay to everyone?
EDIT: As discussed with GreenLantern, I have now un-secret-tagged my text that was originally addressed to him and Shinjiku. Please have a look and share your thoughts. (Below I have deleted some text that were specifically for GL and Shinjiku.)

Previously secret-taggedPathfinder already has a great reference guide for Boon Point use - that is, the Race Point system for creating new races. Whilst many of the race traits and abilities will not be applicable for the world classes, some of them provide a decent idea of relative power. For example:
  1. A +2 bonus to any one ability score costs 4 RP
  2. A flexible feat costs 4 RP, but a static feat such as Improved Initiative or Weapon Finesse costs only 2 RP, and with Skill Focus you can get 3 of them for 4 RP
  3. 4 RP also gives you 1 skill point per level (the Skilled trait)
  4. A +2 dodge bonus costs 4 RP
  5. Natural armor +1 costs 2 RP, and 1 more RP for another +1 (total 3 RP for +2)
  6. DR 5/magic(or an alignment) costs 4 RP, and 2 more RP to make it DR 10
  7. 6 RP for Fast Healing 1
  8. 2 RP for Darkvision, 1 RP for Low-Light Vision
  9. 1 RP for a +1 bonus to all saves (Lucky, Lesser), but 4 RP for a +2 bonus to all saves (Lucky, Greater)
  10. X RP for a X-level spell once a day, or double RP for at-will casting
Also there are some existing value equations in Pathfinder:
  1. 2 traits = 1 feat
  2. 1 HP = 1 skill point (as per the favored class bonus option)
  3. 1 HP per level = 1 feat (as per the Toughness feat)
  4. 1 skill point per level = 1 feat (as per the Skilled trait mentioned above)
  5. +1 dodge bonus to AC = 1 feat (as per the Dodge feat)
  6. +2 to a save (usually chosen to cover a weak save) = 1 feat (as per Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will)
With the above in mind, perhaps you may want to change your Boon Point scale a bit? This may also help guide the world class abilities and bonuses. It is up to you how to tweak the power of 1 Boon Point. For example, you may make 2 BP equivalent to a feat and work things out from there. Just my 2 cents.

Happy with treating the Utility Belt as a wondrous item. Perhaps have it start off with having just the basic stuff, as if the equipment is purchased by any 1st-level Pathfinder character. So a base Wealth Level, which can automatically generate from the belt any item (within reason) that is below a certain Wealth DC (using the d20 Modern list, but expandable to other Batman-exclusive items). Then we can use boon Points to increase the Wealth Level and let Batman eventually be able to pull out more powerful and versatile tools.

Other than the Utility Belt, my Batman at first level would also want a functional Batsuit too - can't really call himself a Batman without one! Perhaps the Gliding Wings ability plus some AC bonus?

Just to share this information with other players, Shinjiku has kindly allowed the Drive and Pilot skills be combined into a single skill. My Batman has spent the freed-up skill rank in Craft(electronic), so he will now be able to help your characters with mechanical as well as electrical gadgets too.

Previously secret-taggedSo, if you take my suggestion of making 1 BP equivalent to half a feat, in effect 1 BP = 2 RP, a Batsuit that grants the Gliding Wings ability (3 RP) and +2 AC (3 RP) would cost 3 BP. Then Batman would spend the remaining 2 BP on improving the Utility Belt.

With the belt that provides general (nonweapon) equipment according to Wealth Level/DC, you can effectively treat it as a skill. Hence, the 2 BP (being equivalent as 4 RP or 1 feat) can be spent:
(1) Like the Skilled racial trait (4 RP) which grants 1 skill point per character level, the belt shall provide a bonus to the Wealth Level equal to character level, so a one-off cost for a scaling benefit that represents the young Batman's improving ability to create gadgets over time; or
(2) As per the Skill Focus feat, granting a non-scaling +3 bonus to Wealth Level; or
(3) Allow both as options.
In the long run, (1) will yield better value but (2) brings greater immediate benefits. If Batman starts with Wealth Level 17 (as previously agreed in private messages), taking (2) will raise it to 20, so making available Deluxe Kits, Mechanical or Electrical. With this system we can then work on what useful gadgets should Batman have and their respective Wealth DC, for example:
  • Batarang: ranged disarm as a nonlethal thrown weapon
  • Grapple Gun: pretty much the same as the old trick of shooting with a crossbow a grappling hook with a rope attached to grant a Climb bonus
  • Sonar Vision Goggles: granting Blindsight
  • Sonic Boot-Heel: Summon Bats, like a spell
  • Tumbler, Bat-Pod, The Bat: use D20 Modern's vehicle and aircraft rules?
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Last edited by Kaji; Jul 9th, 2014 at 10:09 PM.
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  #37  
Old Jul 9th, 2014, 09:26 PM
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Sorry guys for have being gone for so long. To make things a little easier and faster, we will use Kaji's suggestion once he clears it of secret tags.
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  #38  
Old Jul 9th, 2014, 10:15 PM
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I have cleared the secret tags in my above post. Please have a read and let everyone know what you think.

In a nutshell, my suggestion is to have 1 Boon Point = 2 Race Points = 1 Trait = half a Feat (i.e., 1 Feat costs 2 BP), in terms of equivalent power. The 5 BP we get at the beginning is equivalent to 10 RP or 2.5 feats.

Some of the world class abilities already described look really interesting. With the above suggested method, simply take a look at Pathfinder's race creation guide and the lists of feats and traits, see if there is already something that resembles your world class ability and then do the conversion. If not, make a judgement as to what power level your ability measures to. Obviously GL and Shinjiku have to assess and approve.

Now if an ability resembles a spell, and you can use it as many times in a day as you want, one that is similar in power to a 1st-level spell would cost the equivalent of 2 Race Points, or half a feat's worth, and so 1 BP if using my suggested scale. An ability on par with a 2nd-level spell would then cost 2 BP, and so on. Now if you can only use the spell-like ability only once a day, you half the cost, so 1 BP would buy you two 1st-level spell equivalent or one 2nd-level spell equivalent.

Looking forward to having everyone empowering their characters to new heights (as 1st-level characters anyway) and starting the game!
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Last edited by Kaji; Jul 9th, 2014 at 11:59 PM.
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  #39  
Old Jul 10th, 2014, 12:54 AM
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So, using my telekinetic plasmid use as an example, if I wanted... Mage Hand and Open/Close as things I could "cast" at-will...

Those are both 0-level spells, so the two together, on constantly, would only cost 1 Boon Point.
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  #40  
Old Jul 10th, 2014, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eris Renfield View Post
So, using my telekinetic plasmid use as an example, if I wanted... Mage Hand and Open/Close as things I could "cast" at-will...

Those are both 0-level spells, so the two together, on constantly, would only cost 1 Boon Point.
Yes, that looks all right to me. Note that they still require a standard action to use, even though you can use them at will. Perhaps you can augment that with BPs so that you can use them with a move action or even swift action?

Upgrading TelekinesisWith making your telekinesis as a swift action, it is in effect using the metamagic feat Quicken Spell, which adds 4 to the spell level. This would make it equivalent to a 5th-level at-will spell-like ability, so you'd need to spend an extra 4 BP (so 5 in total).

If you only need it to take a move action, say we take the middle number and have it cost only 2 extra BP?

The price list thus becomes:
  • 1 BP: Telekinesis, as standard action, unlimited use per day
  • 2 BP: Upgrade the above to require only a move action
  • 2 BP: Upgrade the above to require only a swift action
Extrapolating this Upgrade ApproachI think this approach to costing speed upgrades should be limited to world class abilities that are somewhat limited in their power to change the environment. Definitely don't apply it to spells that deal damage, as well as other spells that benefit from repeated use, because letting a PC cast three of them in one turn is just too powerful. Besides, the race creation guide specifically states that an innate spell-like ability cannot resemble a spell that deals damage.
SidenoteSpeaking of which, I think I've found the spell that most fits From Street FighterRyu's Hadoken: Admonishing Ray. I know, no one's playing that kind of character in our game. But you'd never know - Batman might one day pick up combat skills beyond his ninja training!
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Last edited by Kaji; Jul 10th, 2014 at 03:08 AM.
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  #41  
Old Jul 13th, 2014, 03:49 PM
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So I have not gotten a single email about you guys posting. That's really was i have been looking for. so I am terribly sorry for my absence. I will now be checking once a day at least lol. sorry again guys. I'm still digesting the things i need to get caught up on but it sounds solid so far. A special thank you to kaji for putting in a lot of thought and work into this. I apologize specifically that i haven't met it with equal enthusiasm.
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  #42  
Old Jul 13th, 2014, 10:43 PM
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Sorry, I was just waiting on more details for the boon point stuff.
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  #43  
Old Jul 13th, 2014, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
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How do we work out boon points for class abilities? As for starting shouts, given that it's early in Revak's new career, and that he was found/taken only a little while after discovering what is, I figure he'd have two or three words of power. IE: 2 or 3 first word only shouts.

 
(..)
Hi Yuul, I'm not familiar with Elder Scrolls, but let's see if my ideas can help you work out with GL and Shinjiku how to incorporate the shouts into this game.

It sounds like Unrelenting Force most resembles Mass Daze, a 4th-level spell. If your character can use it unlimited times a day it would cost 4 BP. Now the range of that spell is impressive (100 ft + 10 ft/level), so you might want to reduce it for a lower BP cost. Perhaps finetune the spell to how it works in Elder Scrolls?

Upon having the third word, Unrelenting Forces gives a bull rush-like effect, if I'm reading it correctly? Forceful Hand seems like the spell it most resembles. It is a 6th-level spell, but you may have to add 2 more levels on top to make it a mass spell, then another premium for combining it with the Mass Daze spell-effect. Then again you should be allowed to reduce the cost given that it won't be as flexible as the original Forceful Hand spell, for example you can only push creatures away from you and you face the same "no two creatures can be further than 30 ft apart" restriction.

With the breath weapons, the Creating New Races guide in PF has the best guide to calculate RP (and therefore BP) costs.
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Last edited by Kaji; Jul 13th, 2014 at 11:48 PM.
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  #44  
Old Jul 14th, 2014, 12:23 AM
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Yuul, we wiil use Kaji's model. I am mainly leaving the elder scrolls up to Shinjiku since he has a better grasp of the game than I do. And sorry for my lack of appearance on the thread as well. Been juggling a couple of games and work is causing my mind to be fried. However, I won't disappear and forget about the game. Thanks for you patience and so sorry it is taking this long for things to fall in place.
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  #45  
Old Jul 14th, 2014, 05:27 PM
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I figure cone range for most shouts(the one's that aren't at a single target like Marked for Death), to be between 15 and 30 feet depending on the number of words used. It's not a very long range weapon at all in most cases. With some exceptions(Again, Marked for Death, Dragonrend, etc).

For damage dealing shouts like Fire Breath, I'm thinking fairly low, like what's a Pathfinder wyrmling's breath weapon damage? 2d10? Of course Pathfinder dragons are different from Tamriel counterparts, but still.

And again, as I said early one I figured that in most of whatever few shouts he starts with, he'd only have a word or two in them so they won't be full strength. We are level 1 after all.

I prefer to stay true to the flavor of where Revak's from rather than make a shout that is normally a short cone AoE into a massive 100ft+ length(Not a bad 20th level capstone ability though).
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Last edited by Yuul; Jul 14th, 2014 at 05:31 PM.
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