[Mechanics] Boon Point Uses for Yuul

[Kaji]

I decided to create a thread for Yuul's character (assuming GL and Shinjiku are happy about this). This first post contains the discussions thus far about the shouts. I will write my suggestions in the next post.

Originally Posted by Yuul

How do we work out boon points for class abilities? As for starting shouts, given that it's early in Revak's new career, and that he was found/taken only a little while after discovering what is, I figure he'd have two or three words of power. IE: 2 or 3 first word only shouts.

 

Unrelenting Force: He definitely has the first word of this one, Fus, regardless of anything else.

Possibilities for Other shouts known:
-Fire Breath: First word Yol
-Elemental Fury: First Word Su
-Frost Breath: First Word Fo

As for time and often he can use them, I was thinking something along the lines of the 1d4 rounds a Pathfinder dragon's breath weapon takes to recharge.

(...)

Originally Posted by Kaji

Hi Yuul, I'm not familiar with Elder Scrolls, but let's see if my ideas can help you work out with GL and Shinjiku how to incorporate the shouts into this game.

It sounds like Unrelenting Force most resembles Mass Daze, a 4th-level spell. If your character can use it unlimited times a day it would cost 4 BP. Now the range of that spell is impressive (100 ft + 10 ft/level), so you might want to reduce it for a lower BP cost. Perhaps finetune the spell to how it works in Elder Scrolls?

Upon having the third word, Unrelenting Forces gives a bull rush-like effect, if I'm reading it correctly? Forceful Hand seems like the spell it most resembles. It is a 6th-level spell, but you may have to add 2 more levels on top to make it a mass spell, then another premium for combining it with the Mass Daze spell-effect. Then again you should be allowed to reduce the cost given that it won't be as flexible as the original Forceful Hand spell, for example you can only push creatures away from you and you face the same "no two creatures can be further than 30 ft apart" restriction.

With the breath weapons, the Creating New Races guide in PF has the best guide to calculate RP (and therefore BP) costs.

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Yuul, we wiil use Kaji's model. I am mainly leaving the elder scrolls up to Shinjiku since he has a better grasp of the game than I do.(...)

Originally Posted by Yuul

I figure cone range for most shouts(the one's that aren't at a single target like Marked for Death), to be between 15 and 30 feet depending on the number of words used. It's not a very long range weapon at all in most cases. With some exceptions(Again, Marked for Death, Dragonrend, etc).

For damage dealing shouts like Fire Breath, I'm thinking fairly low, like what's a Pathfinder wyrmling's breath weapon damage? 2d10? Of course Pathfinder dragons are different from Tamriel counterparts, but still.

And again, as I said early one I figured that in most of whatever few shouts he starts with, he'd only have a word or two in them so they won't be full strength. We are level 1 after all.

I prefer to stay true to the flavor of where Revak's from rather than make a shout that is normally a short cone AoE into a massive 100ft+ length(Not a bad 20th level capstone ability though).

Originally Posted by Shinjiku

Yeah Yuul. From my experience from in skyrim, shouts are very solid abilities. So what I might do is make them cost a bit more but be fairly potent. (...)

Originally Posted by Yuul

(...)But did we work out BP cost for my shouts? Giving the reduced ranges for most of them I mentioned?

[Kaji]

Let's take a look at breath weapons. First point of reference is the Creating New Races (CNR) rules:

Breath Weapon (1 RP)

Prerequisites: Aberration, construct, dragon, humanoid (reptilian), monstrous humanoid, or outsider (native) with ties to an elemental plane.
Benefit: Choose one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. If the creature is an outsider (native), it must have ties to an elemental plane, and it must pick an energy that corresponds to the plane it has ties to (acid [earth], cold [water], electricity [air], or fire [fire]). Then pick either a 15-foot cone or a 20-foot line. Once per day, as a standard action, members of this race can make a supernatural breath weapon attack that deals 1d6 points of the damage type chosen in the area chosen. All creatures within the affected area must make a Reflex saving throw to avoid taking damage. The save DC against this breath weapon is 10 + 1/2 the user's character level + the user's Constitution modifier. Those who succeed at the save take no damage from the attack.
Special: You can take this trait more than once. Each time you do so, the cost of this trait increases by 1 RP. When do, you can augment the breath weapon in the following ways (augmentations marked with an asterisk[*] can be taken more than once).

•Extra Breath*: The member of this race can use its breath weapon an additional time per day.
•Increased Area: Increase the cone's size to 30 feet or the line to 50 feet.
•Increased Damage*: Increase the damage by an additional d6.
•Powerful Breath: The breath weapon deals half damage on a failed saving throw.

Sure this can work with the equation that 2 RP = 1 BP, but the problem with this as written is that the cost will skyrocket as the shout becomes more powerful. Before you know it you might need over 10 BP just to be able to breath fire one more time a day. To illustrate, I've modelled a progression using this system:

 

Incremt BP	Accum BP	Fire Breath Properties
1.5	1.5	15ft-cone, 1d6 damage, Reflex DC for half, 1/day
1.5	3.0	2d6 damage
2.0	5.0	Increased Area to 30ft-cone
2.5	7.5	2/day
3.0	10.5	3d6 damage
3.5	14.0	3/day
4.0	18.0	4d6 damage
4.5	22.5	4/day
5.0	27.5	5d6 damage

It is OK for the purpose of creating a new race. It is designed for any PC or NPC of the race starting at 1st level, not for progression as the character levels up.

I suggest a design that provides a linear progression. I have also weakened it with the factor that Yuul suggested - even if the character can use the breath weapon more than one time a day he must wait for 1d4 rounds before using it the next time - for a cost reduction.

Fire Breath 2 BP: Base Level - 15ft-cone, 1d6 fire damage, Reflex DC (10 + half character level + Con mod) for half, usable once per day Upgrade 1 BP: You gain 1 additional use per day (based on the feat Magic in the Blood); you can take this upgrade multiple times; each time you use the breath weapon roll 1d4 to determine after how many rounds can you next use it again. Upgrade 2 BP: The damage increases by 1d6; you can take this upgrade multiple times but no more than your character level. Upgrade 1 BP: Increase the cone's size by 5 feet; you can take this upgrade multiple times but no more than your character level.

The progression model thus becomes::

 

Incremt BP	Accum BP	Fire Breath Properties
2.0	1.5	15ft-cone, 1d6 damage, Reflex DC for half, 1/day
2.0	3.5	2d6 damage
1.0	4.5	20ft-cone
1.0	5.5	2/day
2.0	7.5	3d6 damage
1.0	8.5	25ft-cone
1.0	9.5	3/day
2.0	11.5	4d6 damage
1.0	12.5	30ft-cone
1.0	13.5	4/day
2.0	15.5	5d6 damage

What do you think? Less powerful earlier, particularly since you no longer get a huge jump of the cone size from 15ft to 30ft (rather you gradually improve it). Don't forget with this system there is a 1d4 round waiting gap before using the fire breath again. The upside is that as you upgrade it the BP cost does stay reasonable.

With the words for this shout, I think you can work it out as a RP issue with GL and Shinjiku, as to when does it become a second- or third- word power.

[Yuul]

I really appreciate you making this thread and putting all the relevant quotes in one place for easy access Kaji

Do we know if we have a set amount of BP gain per level?

Here's my idea for the first word strength and progression of Unrelenting Force.

With the first word/level of it which he knows now, instead of acting like a short cone version of mass daze, it is instead a 15ft cone that staggers those who fail their save, the second word(when I can spend the points to upgrade it too that) Dazes in the 15ft cone, and just staggers them if they make their save.(Like the typical half effect) Finally, when he get enough points to upgrade it fully, it does the full deal of daze and knock back(and prone) with again, only a staggered effect on a succeeded save.

Sorry that isn't as orderly as you made yours, but what do you think?

[Kaji]

My pleasure, Yuul! I quite enjoy this kind of analysis and discussion. It also uses my work skills, actually.

My previous post for Fire Breath is done. With Frost Breath, you can either treat it as a completely separate breath weapon and use the same scale, or piggy-back it on Fire Breath with a BP-purchasable upgrade that resembles a energy substitution feat/ability.

I will continue this discussion for Unrelenting Force, but meanwhile take note that the spell-equivalent of staggering enemies is the Slow spell.

[Yuul]

Yes, but I should also note that Unrelenting Force's effects would only last one round, and minimum strength of a Slow has it lasting five times that. Also, Slow applies -1 penalties to Attack, reflex saves and AC as well as losing half its movement rate that the base condition of Staggered(which only means they lose one of their two actions) does not. The base version of Unrelenting Force is far weaker than that spell. Even at higher levels the duration of Unrelenting Force's effects would only last one round.

In any event, I think we should plan with Revak only having access to the Unrelenting Force and Fire Breath shouts at start, which leaves us 3 BP left to use on the former.

I'm not quite sure how the "Dragon Souls" bit will work out, maybe as some kind of innate passive ability he gains a set amount of BP when he kills a dragon, that can only be spent to unlock or upgrade shouts?(I do have thoughts to non shout BP purchases later on which is why I added that qualification)