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  #2356  
Old 06-02-2018, 06:22 PM
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Photons are an electromagnetic effect; Raindrops, substantially, are not.

Figments should interfere with light, but not physical objects. However, it should probably be handled based upon light intensity for realism.
  • In (1)Daylight, no penalty.

  • In (2)Bright Light, 0th level visual figment effects automatically dispelled. (I'm not aware of any 0th level non-light specific figments, so this is largely irrelevant.)

  • In (4)Intense light, 1st level visual figment effects are automatically dispelled, light-sensitive races take appropriate damage, non-light sensitive races suffer temporary blindness, causes heat damage and fatigue with prolonged exposure.

  • In (8)Searing Light, 2nd level visual figment effects are automatically dispelled, fires may be started, Light sensitive creatures take massive damage, Regular races are automatically blinded if they fail to avert their eyes, may be temporarily blinded regardless. (Typically the result of Ray magic [Read: Laser], but could be achieved by mechanically focusing a sufficiently intense source of mundane light.)
Lighthouses produce a range of illumination, so a small village lighthouse may only simulate Bright Light, but the lighthouse of a metropolis could qualify as "Intense" light due to being reflected, focused, and possibly magical.

High Magic empires may have additional enchantments on their lighthouses specifically to ensure the reliability of their light sources.


 


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Last edited by Gaijin; 06-02-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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  #2357  
Old 06-03-2018, 05:10 AM
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I looked that up for reference. After reading that, it still seems to me that figments don't actually have an effect on light physically, but create a false sensation in the mind, in the 'eye of the beholder'.

The only weird thing is that it says phantasms are entirely in the mind, so figments I guess are partially in the mind and partially in a real location in space.

Since they aren't real but seem to be in space somehow, I would say they alter the invisible information structure that underlies the material plane, without actually altering the material plane directly. They don't physically alter light on the material plane but there is additional magical immaterial information that somehow alters the perception of any creature looking at the place where the figment is.
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  #2358  
Old 06-03-2018, 11:19 AM
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So, Alex... is your hypothesis then that when I cast silent image, and hide behind the wall I conjured up and imagined (with my lantern), that nothing "real" actually happens in the world itself, but only in the MIND of the person looking my way?

ie, my crouching little fighter with his lantern is still there, in an empty hallway, and the light shines just fine... except in your mind?


interesting. That makes sense, and it also makes a simple spell like silent image immensely powerful, in a way.

Imagine placing a silent image spell alongside a major roadway, say, to the king's palace. Hundreds of people pass along every day, soldiers, and statesmen, traders and peasants. And off to the side of the road, say, 100 yards away, I made a silent image of a tree.

Everyone who goes past and looks, sees the tree. So long as they don't interact with it, there's no chance of disbelief, so...they see it.

Every single person that goes past, this spell has to reach out, get into their mind, and alter it to implant (no pun intended) the image.


It makes sense, actually, but damn, it's spooky.
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  #2359  
Old 06-03-2018, 11:30 AM
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Or it's just altering the phase of the light that passes through it, or reflects off of it.

Otherwise, it's mind-affecting, and shouldn't work on constructs.

"Not real" probably means "like a hologram".
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  #2360  
Old 06-03-2018, 01:04 PM
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But it works on skeletons, and they don't have minds...
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  #2361  
Old 06-03-2018, 01:23 PM
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I feel like my posts are either invisible or being misinterpretted.

A magical hologram satisfies the requirements of the spell.

Because it does work on constructs and skeletons, it's not manipulating the perceptions of individuals directly. It is creating an intangible EM field with magical modulation, so observers actually see something, but it is otherwise insubstantial.

Same principle as volumetric haptic feedback for tactile illusions.

(Electrical Engineer; Spatial light modulation; volumetric displays)
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Last edited by Gaijin; 06-03-2018 at 01:51 PM.
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  #2362  
Old 06-03-2018, 02:13 PM
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It probably is simpler, and maybe better, to consider figments as if they were holograms. But when I read in the srd:

Quote:
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
Figment

A figment spell creates a false sensation. ...

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. ...
That leads me to believe a figment does not alter the external world really, but deceives the senses, creates a false perception. Even if the creature has no mind technically, it still has senses, so some kind of perception or sensation, or it's mechanical or undead equivalent. But later on the srd does imply figments also have some component that is not in the sense organs or mind, so that's why I say there is also some kind of magical alteration located in space, just that it doesn't alter anything material.

If you want to get more scientific about it, the idea is that the figment can effect a sense organ like an eyeball for example, even if there is no living mind that the eyeball is connected to.
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  #2363  
Old 06-03-2018, 02:24 PM
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Holograms are precisely a type of false sensation, just like a magician using slight of hand.

You believe that you see a 3D object, but in reality it is a 2D wavefront.

Similar to using electricity in water to trick your taste buds into experiencing citrus.

It creates false sensations by manipulating real ones in unconventional ways.

I think the SRD entry is suffering from imprecision. It doesn't technically say that it only produces false sensations, simply that the false sensation is the intended end product. An emergent property.

 
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  #2364  
Old 06-03-2018, 02:54 PM
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That is an interesting perspective. But I like to think that Illusion magic is an independent school in its own right. A school of magic specialized in false sensations.

The way you describe it it seems like a subschool of the Evocation school, with wizards who are very artistic and clever and resourceful, and for some reason rather just use a portion of the raw creative power they have access to and alter very small amounts of energy.
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Last edited by Alex1983; 06-03-2018 at 02:56 PM.
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  #2365  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:00 PM
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The Illusion school already offers spells like Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration that produce tangible effects.

If they were limited to sensations, they should be nerfed as "Mind Effecting".

Generally, illusion spells start with a seed of truth and inflate it out of proportion to achieve a seemingly more powerful effect.

Difference between External, substantialIllusion(Shadow), External, insubstantialIllusion(Figment), Boundary, MaskingIllusion(Glamer), External, Mind-effectingIllusion(Pattern), and Internal, Mind-affectingIllusion(Phantasm)

Blog on the subject:
http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/...ell-types.html
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  #2366  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:33 PM
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It's probably better to think of Magic as a color wheel with some hand-waving rather than distinct schools. The secondary and tertiary schools aren't necessarily "subschools", but they aren't "Primary".

Necromancy(Life) -Abjuration- Evocation(Energy) -Transmutation- Conjuration(Body) - Illusion - Enchantment(Mind) - Divination - Necromancy(Life)

Increasing/decreasing some magical "luminosity" equivalent creates a spell that is more or less distinct from the others.
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  #2367  
Old 06-03-2018, 03:45 PM
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The way they explain shadow illusions, they aren't just extra strong illusion magic, it sounds more like illusion magic mixed with an extra component of shadow energy from the shadow plane.

Your interpretation is great and makes sense Gaijin, it just isn't what I get when I read the SRD, and it also makes the illusion school seem less special and distinctive, from my point of view.
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Old 06-03-2018, 03:59 PM
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I do like that color diagram though. Very cool. Where is that from? That raises a whole bunch of other points that are probably way off topic for this thread.
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  #2369  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:04 PM
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Do you mean the text, or the image? I just threw the text together on the fly. The image is just a standard color representation from google. Usually a cylinder, but the cone provides a little more visual drama.

A more nuanced interpretation could include the Additive/Subtractive color wheels. This would invert the school dominance to give Illusion more power when coupled with the other secondary spells by changing the mindset of how they are used together.
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Last edited by Gaijin; 06-03-2018 at 04:10 PM.
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  #2370  
Old 06-03-2018, 04:25 PM
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Well, this is off topic, like I said. The classification you make doesn't put divination in a satisfying position, abjuration isn't very clear either. And it also suggests the creation subschool of conjuration should go somewhere else, right? It's still very neat.
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