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  #16  
Old Nov 24th, 2012, 11:23 AM
SpatulaOdoom SpatulaOdoom is offline
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They were starting to get to the core of what was bothering him about Nevh's attitude and why he was leery about her being the one.
" Necessary evil, lesser of two evils, the choice between bad and worse, it doesn't matter what you call it Nevh. Some people jump to those measures easily, others less so. What concerns me is how quickly you skip to the darker path and your atitude. When we sought to find and bring in Alyyryk your first thought was to kidnap him or take his charges by force and hold them hostage. Our discussion on the Warforged makes me consider how easily you could slide down to justifying something like slavery on a large scale or things like that. You contradict yourself, speaking of justice and the greater good but saying that morality will have no sway in your child's choices. Morality is how we decide what constitutes the greater good and when it's time to choose the lesser of two evils."

He holds up a conciliatory hand. "Don't get me wrong, I don't think I would be a very good prospect to "take the plunge" either. At least not with Cehrencha. A hybrid made from me might use his power to wipe out all the vampires at the earliest opportunity." Heavens knew someone with the power of the creator of the vampires would probably have an easy time of it. Considering how the Vampire's hierarchical control worked Cehrencha would probably have more control over them than The Blue Lady did over the trolls. "I'm saying we need to consider all the options and ramifications. When I spoke of timeframe, I was asking more about how long we have before the imbalance of forces becomes critical and we find ourselves swimming in fiends. How long we have to look into it and consider all appropriate hosts. As of right now we only have one of the daggers and one choice to make with no guarantee that we'll acquire the other two."

"Side note. Samael indicated that the Elders were something that couldn't be destroyed while on Ahkea. You're saying that the process of merging them destroys them. Those statements contradict one another so one of these two can't be correct. Do you know which? And I'd also like to know where you're getting all this information from, is it all from Khekanon or do you have other sources as well?" Again she was contradicting herself.

He listens in on the discussion regarding the natures of the Elders and the power and abilities of the hybrids, having nothing to add himself. He'd estimated them to be somewhere near or at the power of a paragon themselves.
"Hopefully Eve will be recovered and able to give us her estimation regarding The Blue Lady's physical power. There is also one person I can talk to about Cehrencha. I really should have done that the other day. In addition Bane has requested that he be allowed to have a look at the occupied dagger so he can compare it to Kehkanon's expended dagger."
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  #17  
Old Nov 24th, 2012, 11:36 AM
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OOC"Side note. Samael indicated that the Elders were something that couldn't be destroyed while on Ahkea. You're saying that the process of merging them destroys them"

This is a case of people talking about the 'Elder Demons' and the new 'Hybrids' interchangeably.

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  #18  
Old Nov 24th, 2012, 12:28 PM
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She joined her hands again, shaking her head slowly.
"You get me not. The greater good has nothing to do with this. It must simply be done. There is no contradiction; the justice I see in this has nothing to do with morality. It is difficult to understand and I've no wish to explain it. So you'll have to forgive me and leave at that.
I did not mean to give the impression that I would justify such a thing; you put the context upside down - humans made unnatural sentient creatures out of something that should have never been more than what it originally was. Making them slaves then after would be but gratuitous cruelty. See a nuance in me feeling their creation was a mistake and irresponsible, and me thinking that they should pay for their creator's foolishness. They shouldn't. It is done, and it is now too late."


She smiled softly upon his conciliation.
"I disagree. I think you'd make a marvelous hybrid. Though I have large doubts it would be a seer as well, so you'd probably serve the world better in not being one. Sorry."
Nevh grinned. A bolt of electricity ran up her back as she chuckled. It was good to be able to joke about something so horrible.

She winced at the clarification that the timeframe referring to the imbalance.
"The imbalance has no definite timeframe, I fear. I will ask him just how far he feels it, but he mentioned that there will be telling signs that the end of it draws near. Crazy weathers and magic becoming unreliable, mostly.
I'd rather be done with it as soon as possible. I would not want my will to falter with time or risk getting killed before it is done. Or knowledge of the dagger reaching the wrong ears and see it taken from us. If you believe I'd make a dangerous hybrid that would make the world a darker place, I don't see how I can brighten my case. Things have changed since we met; myself more than I thought possible. I'd rather you all trust me with this but I won't be crushed if you cannot."


On the sidenote.
"He probably referred to the hybrid as an Elder. There isn't much terminology for that new being, after all, and he maybe didn't want to confuse you. The information stems mostly from Nehrahk, whom would know them best, the Sword, and my observations in my brief stay there."

His last comment made her nod.
"Good idea. I also thought I'd try to squeeze some information on them from Shade. Perhaps he knows something on the matter. If we're incredibly fortunate, he has the last dagger, or knows its location."

OOC@Mak's comment: Ah! Thought so.

Last edited by Blue; Nov 25th, 2012 at 10:13 PM.
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  #19  
Old Nov 26th, 2012, 12:12 PM
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Didina soon adds her own views to the sidenote. "There is also a difference between destroying something's sense of identity and outright killing it - unless you're a Tyyrykan at least. He could have simply meant that the Elder's power/essence/whatever's in those damned daggers can not be wholly destroyed."

"As for candidates for suicide it seems as if Alyyryk is bent on dying to save and/or avenge his brother and sister. Not to mention that an Elder-ed up Alyyryk might be better able to get through to his Elder-ed up sister, especially since for all we know she'll kill him before he has the time to try and get through to her. And this is ignoring the fact that 'The' Oracle not only predicted his imminent death but said that how and why he dies could end up 'giving us our best chance'."

"What about the other Alyyryk?" Didina gives Misa a blank look. "The brain-dead one in Zilira's basement." It's obvious by the Tiefling's expression that she'd forgotten about him. "Nevh said that the Blue Woman's memories have to be constantly suppressed as she's healing all the time, so it stands to reason that the same would be true if the brother became an Elder. He might even be able to tell us more about Zera, his operation and Sanctuary, and we'd have Alyyryk to help us keep him passive and connected. We could always implant memories based on his real memories (provided by Alyyryk) beforehand to try and make sure he's passive while regaining the brother's memories and Nehrahk might be willing to stick around to physically ensure he doesn't go on a rampage or escape."

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Old Nov 26th, 2012, 02:50 PM
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She pointed a finger toward Didina as if to say "good point".
"His disposition is mighty convenient. There are certainly other ways to accomplish the same result, like having the words be relayed by someone else that may convey the memories to her, like Nehrahk or whoever brings the next hybrid. Illusions to give some visual and auditory support if that helps, like a record of a message from her brothers. It isn't that complicated... but the most efficient mean would be to sacrifice him, of course.

"I think it is his right to be informed of his options on the matter. Doing so may be us executing him, but as long as he understands that his sacrifice is not absolutely necessary for them to reach some kind of a happy ending, then I'm fine with it."


Misa's thought made her clench her teeth and frown sternly.
"Yeah. First thing that crossed my mind. Thing is, his soul being currently lost to the Circle isn't an excuse to most likely make it impossible for him to reach it. Saving him *is* possible - but in his current state he is in a very bad position to object to being sacrificed. If he's anything like his brother he'd probably accept, granted, especially if Alyyryk does it, but as things are it won't be his choice."
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  #21  
Old Nov 29th, 2012, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevh
[b]"The greater good has nothing to do with this. It must simply be done."[b]
"Must it? It seems that not doing it is an option. One with consequences certainly, but it's an option. You can't have justice without Morality and Ethics. Morality is effectively the things you value and how that affects the choices you make. Someone could choose to release the Elders for any number of reasons. In my case I believe humanity, and the other sentient races like the dragons and warforged and trueforged, as flawed as they are are more worthy than the Fiends and the fiendish gods and I don't wish to see them re-take Ahkea. Others might do the exact same thing for any number of different reasons. Someone with purely selfish motivations like Zera might not want to wind up under the heels of Asharte and wishes to claim the world for themselves. Someone who actively hates the fiends might do it to spite and hurt them. You can say that it's the action that matters and not the motivation, and to a degree you'd be right, but that's missing the point of this discussion entirely. Knowing the motivations that drives people allows you to have an idea of how they will act in the future. Without knowing about you and your motivations I can't say for sure how good of an option you are for hybridization."
If the hybrid not only had the memories of the original but much of the personality as well then it mattered very much. It wasn't about him thinking she'd be a "bad" choice for it, he really did think she'd be a decent choice, but would she be the "best" choice? Considering she seemed to be willing to be destroyed utterly but didn't want to go to the trouble of explaining her viewpoint and why... Well it was concerning. No he wouldn't simply forgive her and leave it at that, this was too important to spare her feelings, or anyone else for that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevh
"I disagree. I think you'd make a marvelous hybrid."
Morgan shakes his head as a shadow crosses his face. Nevh wasn't the only one with blood on her hands, and Morgan could claim no greater cause than his own wounded ego and thirst for revenge to excuse his actions. Oh sure he'd rationalized his actions as for good a good cause, but he was good at rationalizing his actions to himself and others. How much worse would it be to mix that with an Elder?
"No. I wouldn't."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevh
"-it won't be his choice."
Morgan points to Nevh and nods his head before speaking to the others. "There, right there, is the important bit. I won't condone it. Lytass Alyyryk isn't in his right mind so he can't give consent, nor has he done some heinous crime that would justify worse than killing him. You'd be murdering him in hopes, not guarantee, just hopes, of recovering a now dead man's memories of an enemy that may be nothing more than the inside of a cell or a patch of wilderness out in the middle of nowhere. Exposing someone to damaging information before brain bending them and sending them off to attack an enemy would be a foolish and unnecessary risk. The Hands of Sammael had no idea how far, or even if, the Alyyryk's had penetrated Zera's organization." Morgan looks hard at Misa. "And what do you think Lekan would think of us doing that to his brother? Would that make us as bad as Zera the eyes of the Alyyryk's?" Morgan shakes his head. "I expect we'd wind up with two Elder hybrids with a grudge against both Zera and us if we did that. Especially-" He pauses. Especially if they found out that Zera is a bastard of the Halvan royal line. "I do think we should tell Lekan about the situation though. I'm researching some very old prophecies that may refer to Lekan Alyyryk. I don't have the information to say anything definite yet, but I think we should be very careful about how we deal with him."
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Last edited by SpatulaOdoom; Jul 23rd, 2013 at 01:27 PM.
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  #22  
Old Nov 29th, 2012, 10:00 PM
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"I didn't mean for us to go behind Alyyryk's back with his brother." Misa explains. "But otherwise you've probably got a point." She sighs, running a hand through her hair.

The remark about prophecies piques Didina's interest. "More prophecies about Alyyryk? Well, he's certainly popular."

~MTWC
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  #23  
Old Nov 30th, 2012, 03:33 AM
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She sniffed, mildly amused.
"Okay, see a world of options in this. I see but the illusion of choice."

"Nevertheless, I won't speak of it. Not out of shame or out of guilt. This is mine and mine alone and concerns only me. It would not affect your opinion on the matter and, as I said, it is but a small reason among others that motivates me to do this. I would do it even without it and you most certainly overestimate the importance it has in the hybrid I could generate.
You trust me or you don't. If you've questions on anything else related to the issue, though, I'll be open."

The situation was less than ideal. It didn't seem right that those who'd decide whether she would get to do it or not were friends. She could take guesses as to the level of attachment they might have toward her, but any amount felt unfair. Least the world needed was people getting sentimental and fishing for reasons to stop her, but she knew most of them to be quite level headed. It was kind of a surprise, still. She had more trouble getting the motion through than expected. Ideally she could have just snatched the dagger and gotten through with it with none of them in the know. Easier for everyone else to live with it after, too, which is why she had no intention to speak of it with those of her House. The madness!

On Morgan's hybridation she had little else to say. She grunted.
"Meh. If you say so. It's for the best, anyhow. Lekan probably wouldn't make such an amazing hybrid either but we all know we'll let him make one all the same."

She didn't see how getting Lekan's blessing on destroying his brother made it any better. The idea of a relative choosing for you gave her a slight feeling of disgust. They already had enough influence on how you live, couldn't they give you a break when's time to choose how you die?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wainraith
"-but I think we should be very careful about how we deal with him."
"Cheers to something new."

Last edited by Blue; Dec 1st, 2012 at 02:05 PM.
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  #24  
Old Dec 4th, 2012, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevh
"Lekan probably wouldn't make such an amazing hybrid either but we all know we'll let him make one all the same."
Morgan doesn't rise to the bait.
"Under the right circumstances and for the right reasons yes. Otherwise no. Alyyryk is a very angry young man, if he goes into it because he wants to hurt people and break stuff we'd be idiots to "let him make one." On the other hand if he decides to do it because he wants to protect others and prevent the sort of suffering he himself has gone through, then certainly he'd be an option. If he refused to speak on it as you are doing my vote would be no. I may be a gambler but there are some things I'm not willing to simply roll the dice on and hope for the best."
He pauses. Starts to speak. And pauses again before finding his voice.
"The only other potential candidate I can suggest at the moment that might be suitable and willing would be Esiard Emlyn."
Saying that hurt. The idea that Esiard might not find the rest he deserved, that even his soul might be denied it's rightful place in the afterlife and consumed on the pyre of the greater good seemed almost too unfair to speak of, but there it was. He was morally unimpeachable, iron willed and unflinching in the face of adversity, motivated by the welfare of others, loved even the lowest of people, was willing to fight and sacrifice for the good of others. And he was almost dead already. He'd lived his life and it'd been a full one. He'd made his mark on history and had his family, the two closest things a mortal could get to immortality. And he'd had his own predictions made. He couldn't actually think of any reason to say no to the possibility beyond the sheer unfairness of it.

Morgan takes a deep cleansing breath.
"Now, onto other matters.
Nevh asked earlier of Lord Sol had been contacted. I've spoken with him, but it was hardly necessary. Anhil Sol knows about most of our activities thus far, he's the head of the Covenant, a group off First Legion vampires who've hung around since the country's founding in order to protect it from internal threats. He's broken the bounds of secrecy on the Covenant, which is what is allowing me to speak of it. All of which is pretty impressive for a man that does not exist.
Anhil Sol is actually Seneca Sol. When Cehrencha created the vampires Seneca was the first, making him the oldest vampire in existence, and arguably among the oldest beings in existence."

That particular revelation had left Morgan with a lot of questions he is in retrospective glad he hadn't asked during his last trip to the Sol House.

A small, morbidly humorous part of his mind reminded him that Senecia still hadn't given up on convincing him to marry his daughter. His stomach roils.
oocBlue: I'm not sure where you or Nevh got the impression anyone was suggesting they ask permission of Lekan to do it to Lyytas. I don't think anyone suggested that. At least Morgan wasn't doing so.
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Last edited by SpatulaOdoom; Jul 23rd, 2013 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Fixed a tag and Seneca's name.
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  #25  
Old Dec 4th, 2012, 09:26 AM
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That made her smile.
"That he is."
She drummed five fingers once upon the table, then licked her lips. Speaking rather calmly.
"Whatever he'll say, we know a lot his motivation in all of this. Even if he desired to take it upon himself to sort of become everyone's guardian, revenge is what animates him most. He doesn't have much left besides it. Yet there would be no gamble; your friend already confirmed it was the best chance of this world. Don't ******** me."

Perhaps he was honestly believing he wouldn't let him do it. Maybe there was some hypocrisy in what they were doing; manipulating the outcome to get the kind of hybrid they wanted, like Zera, but in the end who knew what really mattered in making the best hybrid possible.
If that was even possible. Nehrahk's behavior and what she had heard of the Cold Lady had given her the impression that perhaps all the hybrids would have more or less the same kind of personality. Hopefully it wasn't so, but then again... it didn't really matter.

Esiard's mention surprised her. She took a moment to process is as he spoke, feeling a little crushed herself.
His honesty then gave him credit. If there was one person that'd fit the requirement, it would be the one man he idolized.
It was a shame he had to mention him, though. Had she mentioned him first he would have been able to blame her for it instead of living with whatever feeling he'd endure if he indeed agreed to do it. A part of her wanted to make him confirm that he was really willing to let his 'father' sacrifice himself, which was akin to sending him to its doom. It didn't feel... natural? Doing something like that to one's own family could potentially seem worse than self-sacrifice. To them, at least.

Nevh stayed quiet about it. Deciding there wasn't really a point to it.
She tried not to think of those she knew would be good candidates for the task. It was all sad enough as is.

Anhil's actual identity made her chuckle anxiously. Sometimes the simplest explanation was indeed the right one.
She scratched her back pensively, nervously.
"So... anything new from him?"


OocNeither did. It was just a passing thought in response to Misa's last comment.

Last edited by Blue; Dec 4th, 2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old Dec 5th, 2012, 02:46 AM
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Morgan didn't look at all happy about the turn in events this conversation was taking - he'd never been a fan of having to do things, so that conflated with the fact that at the end of the day, everyone seemed convinced that sacrificing someone was the only way out and that didn't sit well with him.

"I agree with sir Wainwraith, can we maybe shelve all the talk about heroic sacrifices and obliteration of souls until we understand the circumstances better? There are never only two choices in a situation, unless you refuse to look further." He said, though he seemed to be aiming the remark more at the Rudaa than anyone else.
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Old Dec 14th, 2012, 09:26 PM
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Didina rolls her eyes. "Now that's just wishful thinking Mister Crescent. Not only are there times when you've only got two options, but sometimes you don't even have any, especially where the actions of others are concerned."

Zilira is the next to speak up. "Nevertheless, taking time would be for the best. Even if we decide to ask anyone we'll want to give them more information as well as time. Which brings us to our next point: what do we tell the others? In particular Alyryyk. Can we be sure that if we reveal the fate of his sister that he won't go on a roaring rampage of revenge and get himself killed? He already knows his sister is 'lost' to him, but knowing to what degree and what it is the hybrid is doing with her body...well...loss of hope is an ugly thing, and he has little to hope for as it is at the moment."

When the matter of Anhil is raised Zilira waves a dismissive hand. [b]"You'll have the opportunity to speak to him yourself soon enough. He and the King are speaking now in fact. With the Covenant broken Seneca feels it is best to clear the air and get things out in the open. As far as he's concerned the less secrets we keep among each other the better, since that's the sort of thing Zera uses against people."[b]

~MTWC
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Old Dec 15th, 2012, 12:19 AM
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Nevh sighed.
"At this point I've no qualm with revealing pretty much everything. Same goes for Alyyryk. I see little reasons to even hide our investigation more. Whether Zyra knows about us or not, he will strike soon. There is still that Drow issue going on underground that shouldn't be entirely ignored but on the surface there is only the enemy and what we can do to better oppose it and shut it down.

"Alyyryk will most likely react explosively to the entire reveal. Better now while we can control it than later when it might backfire. If he sees the Blue Lady anything could happen. We put him somewhere we're sure he won't be able to simply teleport out of or otherwise slip through the walls. We tell him everything and try to give him hope as to the possible final outcome of everything, along with the choice of sacrifice if he absolutely feels the need to do it. Keep him there for a moment to calm down and seriously think about it, then hear him out."


It was more or less how she remembered being treated as a child when she got grounded. There wasn't something to punish him for but its concept of forcing someone to have some time to think felt appropriate.
She rubbed her chin.
"As for more information, I'll see what I've got after I contact Nehrahk. Perhaps Shade or Eve got something on the matter but I wouldn't bet on it. No idea on how long it'll take for her to get a new head."
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Old Dec 18th, 2012, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevh
"Yet there would be no gamble; your friend already confirmed it was the best chance of this world. Don't ******** me."
Morgan crosses his arms and gives Nevh a level look. "Does not gambling involve chance, best or otherwise?" Nevh was making a very dangerous error in thinking on that score. "Let me make this clear. The Oracle cannot see the future. Remember my discussion on the threads of reality? The Oracle can see all those threads, or at least as many as her mind can handle, and her predictions are based on events in the threads that are similar to our own. The thing is they aren't our own, or more accurately one of them is our own but there's no way to know which is and which isn't. She's a hell of a lot better than anyone else at guessing thanks to her abilities, but that doesn't mean that because most of the other threads have Alyyryk becoming a hybrid and saving the day that it's the best way to go about it, or even that it's really the best choice we can make. Even if the Oracle were a perfect being her estimations could not be free of error because cause and effect are not absolute. If cause and effect were absolute there would not be many threads but only one, The Oracle and my probability powers would not exist, and fate would exist."

Morgan raises an eyebrow. "********? No. I've simply thought the situation through thoroughly." Granted he'd had a couple more decades than most people to consider and study that particular conundrum. It was why he'd repeatedly insisted that there were no absolutes. "Nor am I being arrogant in thinking I can do better than The Oracle. I think that we collectively can do better." But only if they tried.

Morgan spends some time pondering what they should do in regards to Alyyryk. His first instinct is to side with the "tell him right away" method. It seemed that if he wasn't going to be able to handle the revelation they were better off knowing now rather than later. Even if he took it badly now he might have time to recover his balance, as Nevh had commented, between now and when the time of calamity was at hand. On the other hand, if he spent time here, bonding and making friends it might give him the anchor he needed to keep his head on straight when they dropped the load on his shoulders. Morgan looks between Zilira and Morgan Crescent. "I favor the full-disclosure approach with Alyyryk, but the two of you have spent more time with him than any of the rest of us. What do you advise?"

Once that was done Morgan speaks up again. "One last thing. I haven't had much time to slow down and take a time to reflect on events. When I finally did a few things occurred to me. Mainly that I've been working with a lot of preconceptions and maybe a skewed perception. A lot of this seems to point back to the Demongate wars. The important thing about the Demongate wars was that we, with the help of the Zodiac threw off our oppressors. But I realize that that's probably taking a pretty human-centric viewpoint. Sure it's important to us, but the stars and the ocean and the planes probably don't care too much what tiny short lived creatures are grubbing in the dirt for a microscopic speck of time.
It could be that the important thing was what happened right at the beginning. It was the fact that the Zodiac came to exist in our reality at all. In terms of cause and effect it's one of those causeless events as far as our reality is concerned, a snarl in the thread where sense temporarily takes a leave of absence and the "natural" order of things is forced to change. We could be seeing another similar occurrence here. Something from elsewhere, maybe even wherever the Zodiac came from, arrives and upsets the balance of forces, maybe even simply by existing in our reality. It would explain why the current events with Zera and the Five seem inimical to all the established powers and orders."
Morgan sighs and rubs his eyes. "Or I could just be grasping at shadows. Either way, it's probably best to keep our eyes and minds open to the possibility. We know it happened at least once."

Morgan recognizes another small gap in his knowlege. Zil darling. Did your mother's coup happen before or after the arrival of the Zodiac?
oocNote to self. Find out if Samael knows of any prophecies predicting the arrival of the Zodiac.
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Old Dec 18th, 2012, 03:46 AM
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She put both hands in front of her as he began to ramble on reality threads and fate as if to stop a bull ramming her way.
"Don't. Stop. I know how it works. Sarcasm... Sarcasm. Please don't explain.
What I'm trying to say is that you've no choice but to gamble on the issue anyway, so you might as well bet on whats already perceived as the best odds of success out there. Gamble in many forms; he could lie to you on his reasons... hell, even I could have lied to you about my reasons and could just make one up to satisfy you.
"Yes, there could be a better ending to this story if we do something else, but in the end, success is on average better reached when Alyyryk becomes an hybrid, including the realities in which we try something else.

"He'll make his choice and if that's the path he takes we'll try to make sure he's not doing it on a whim. If even then his reasons are not to your tastes or he prefers to keep them to himself; then whatever - we let him do it anyway. I'll take the best chance over the less-better-odds-with-a-possible-happier-outcome-for-everybody-path any day. Sorry, but in this scenario, victory comes first. Whatever hybrid he'd make we know he's a good guy at heart."


After Morgan's makes a tale of his latest thoughts, Nevh scratched the back of her neck, uneasy.
"I think you're over-thinking it. The event wasn't causeless and most likely did not disturb the balance itself. The balance of forces, yes, as in they sided with the slaves whom had little forces to speak of. Still, if you wish I could perhaps bring you with me to speak with Nehrahk, if you want. He has the memories of the Elder and told me bits and pieces on the Zodiacs; where they came from and how to reach them ourselves. He knows much. Just promise not to shout at him. Not him."
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