[OOC] Noble Hubris

[Mindsiege]

@LeDragon:
If you want to give me a Perception check with Namfoodle's post, feel free to do so.

[LeDragon]

Originally Posted by Mindsiege

@LeDragon:
If you want to give me a Perception check with Namfoodle's post, feel free to do so.

rolled a 9 for perceptionMaybe, elephants are huge...

[Mindsiege]

Originally Posted by LeDragon

rolled a 9 for perceptionMaybe, elephants are huge...

It's a thick forest. But all it takes is just to move into the campgrounds. They're bound to appear sooner than later.

[Mindsiege]

@Togot:
I will need you to specify where you are sending Nephala to go searching for the man in question. Or are you simply letting her do a quick scan of the surrounding streets and plaza?

@all:
I will assume that your familiars are directly on your character's person unless I can glean from your post that there's another position that they are taking.

[Togot]

she is flying over the plaza for a general search. if hes inside somewhere she wont find him

[Mindsiege]

Originally Posted by Togot

she is flying over the plaza for a general search. if hes inside somewhere she wont find him

Roger that.

[Mindsiege]

So, after seeing the rolls for both Phil and Aurora, I should probably hint that I suggested for Phil to attempt a Sleight of Hand based on his CHA, because his attempt at fooling Aurora about using his Heart Sight on her would not be more useful due to how dexterous he is, but rather due to how well he can play it off, which hinges on his charisma. (I also offered a Performance check as an alternative but only realized later that Phil has no relevant proficiencies and it makes no difference.)

So based on that notion, Aurora would have actually won the contested skill check. However, it's also true that Aurora rolled a critical failure on her Insight check. So I guess since all of this is only between players, I'll leave the results of this interaction to you to interpret.

@BarrowB:
You have free reign. Either Aurora notices that Phil is acting weird with her and up to something or other, or she is entirely oblivious and thinks he's acting entirely normal. I think you should flavour it however you like.

@edit:
Aaaand, of course I was too slow and cross-posted. The matter still stands, you may edit or keep your post as you like.

[BarrowB]

Originally Posted by Mindsiege

So based on that notion, Aurora would have actually won the contested skill check. However, it's also true that Aurora rolled a critical failure on her Insight check. So I guess since all of this is only between players, I'll leave the results of this interaction to you to interpret.

That's surprising.
Clearly a battle of titans XD.

There is no such thing as critical fails on skill checks in 5e, so I edited the post a bit.

[Mindsiege]

Originally Posted by BarrowB

There is no such thing as critical fails on skill checks in 5e

That is entirely true and absolutely what I would have enforced if it wasn't purely an interaction between player characters.

[secretID]

Originally Posted by Mindsiege

So, after seeing the rolls for both Phil and Aurora, I should probably hint that I suggested for Phil to attempt a Sleight of Hand based on his CHA, because his attempt at fooling Aurora about using his Heart Sight on her would not be more useful due to how dexterous he is, but rather due to how well he can play it off, which hinges on his charisma. (I also offered a Performance check as an alternative but only realized later that Phil has no relevant proficiencies and it makes no difference.)

So based on that notion, Aurora would have actually won the contested skill check. However, it's also true that Aurora rolled a critical failure on her Insight check. So I guess since all of this is only between players, I'll leave the results of this interaction to you to interpret.

I'm lost. Phil made a sleight of hand to touch her surreptitiously, and it looks like he beat the Insight check. It obviously doesn't matter, but...I'm lost.

[Mindsiege]

Originally Posted by secretID

I'm lost. Phil made a sleight of hand to touch her surreptitiously, and it looks like he beat the Insight check. It obviously doesn't matter, but...I'm lost.

I'm sorry that I failed to explain myself properly before. The way that I envisioned the interaction when you explained it to me before and after reading the narration, there's a clear contact established for Heart Sight to take effect. Unless Aurora was numbed through some sort of toxin and especially when she's looking right at Phil, she will know that she's being touched. There was no possibility of Phil nor did the narration describe it as suchsurreptitiously touching Aurora as such, so that's why the challenge of this contest didn't amount to a Sleight of Hand (DEX) check. What we've tried to check for is whether Phil is able to play off his ability as just some random/casual/normal contact that is established while handing over the Goodberry. This type of challenge is not a DEX-based task, but rather CHA-based. Going by the rules, the most obvious skill to support Phil's attempted contest would be the Actually, that's the one I forgot to mention in our PMs, but I looked it up in the PHB again and Deception should have been first-choice for this contest.Deception skill. Considering Phil's clever approach, I determined that either a Sleight of Hand proficiency or a Performance proficiency could also be applied to support the CHA check instead of Deception. Hence why I called for a Sleight of Hand (CHA), contested by Aurora's Insight (WIS). Going by the rolls, Aurora made an Insight (6) check to contest Phil as he made an Sleight of Hand (4), because Phil would be using his CHA for the check rather than the DEX which you used in the roll. Consequently, Aurora would be winning the contest, which clues her in that Phil is touching her "suspiciously". Given Aurora's history with the fey, I think there's plenty of reason to To clarify, unless Phil explained his Heart Sight ability beforehand or Aurora beats an appropriate Knowledge check about sprites, she would not know that her emotions have been read right there.presume that Phil is using some kind of fey magic, even if Phil's appraisal of Rolen which he reported to the party may not have included the particulars of his Heart Sight ability.

So either way, that would have been the mechanical resolution for the presented narrative. I am very sorry if I explained myself insufficiently before, but this particular resolution was what I had intended to convey as the mechanical resolution of the described approach in our messages. I understand that calling for a CHA check rather than a DEX check was comparatively unfavorable for Phil in this situation, but this is also why Aurora took an Insight, not a Perception check. Again, I'm sorry that I lost you and that you were surprised by this result. As you know, I'm pretty careful around PvP and don't aim to allow it to bring dissatisfaction into the game. So if you would prefer, we could also just call it off and retcon the whole interaction. I was only trying to adjudicate the narrative for you players in a way that you could enjoy some stakes in your interparty conflict RP.

Please let me hear your preference. This type of situation is why I don't generally enjoy presiding over PvP as the adjudicator of the rules (GM). I think next time I'll just leave it to my players to figure out and not make any calls. But just for the future, this is how I would resolve this particular Heart Sight interaction if it came up with Phil approaching a mistrustful NPC openly. A different approach may result in a different resolution. And again, sorry for failing to provide the required clarity for the mechanical resolution upfront.

[secretID]

Originally Posted by Mindsiege

I called for a Sleight of Hand (CHA), contested by Aurora's Insight (WIS).

Ooooh. Got it.

Originally Posted by Mindsiege

I am very sorry if I explained myself insufficiently before

No problem at at. I won't bother rereading it, but the misunderstanding is probably my fault.

Originally Posted by Mindsiege

This type of situation is why I don't generally enjoy presiding over PvP as the adjudicator of the rules (GM).

Sure. You know I don't like consequential PVP anyway. I thought this would be a little amusing, and definitely wasn't looking for anything serious.

[Mindsiege]

Originally Posted by secretID

I thought this would be a little amusing

I think it makes for a pretty good story beat! Both Aurora's detest for fey and her mood are essential parts of her story, so Phil getting involved with them will further those parts of the narrative!

[Noquarter19]

Originally Posted by Mindsiege

Please let me hear your preference. This type of situation is why I don't generally enjoy presiding over PvP as the adjudicator of the rules (GM). I think next time I'll just leave it to my players to figure out and not make any calls.

To add my 2 pennies, I appreciate the earlier offer for a persuasion check with Namfoodle over the herbalist situation, and if I'd merited that business as needing to go my way, I'd have likely tried that roll - but only if I knew the other party was comfortable with it. Moving forward, the possibility of in-game PvP rolls might be a good note to include when recruiting for future games you DM. I don't really have an issue because it'd mean more dice rolling fun, but not everyone is as weird as me and I would hate to have someone get bent up over it.

Of course, I might just be making the proverbial mountain from a molehill here over something everyone else is A-ok with, but I feel like it's feedback I'd want to hear if I was ever organized enough to DM some day.

[Mindsiege]

@Noquarter:
No, I get you entirely. Truthfully, I don't really want to advertise for PvP in my GM introduction, nor am I particularly inclined to feature it as part of my adventure's content.

In case of the decision about mahout vs. herbalist, I merely wanted some kind of decision to be reached when the vote seemed to be heading towards a stalemate and everybody was silent OOC. My thought on the matter is that a Persuasion contest would have been minimally better than a coin flip because it makes the randomized decision feel more personal for the party's story, but either way I wouldn't have considered it as PvP (though I wanted to make sure that everybody was on the same page about that).

In case of Phil and Aurora, that's something I pretty much allowed because I figured BarrowB and secretID would enjoy it due to my understanding of them as players. Generally I only allow PvP if it doesn't detract from the adventure, which in this case I determined it wouldn't.

So the question will be how far I want to adjudicate a scene once I allow some collaborative PvP. I generally assume that everybody trusts me as the GM to be impartial in my adjudication, but just in case, for the future I might prefer handing out a carte blanche to my players to "do it however you want" if my players perform some kind of handshake over resolving their intercharacter RP via a dice contest. Then at least I don't have to worry that a player might get dissatisfied with me imposing anything.

@edit:
Mind you, as the GM it's my job to preside over what happens in the game, so handing out a carte blanch might be too irresponsible? Either way, I would like to foster the environment at the table to be collaborative over competitive. I figure in a mature playgroup it's alright to pass the baton of responsibility over to the players sometimes. I've not yet reached a conclusion on how involved I'll want to be with adjudicating PvP in the future, but either way I don't think that I should bring up PvP during recruitment. At my table, PvP is something that only happens when the players ask for it and convince me that it'll improve the story. And again, I don't think that Persuasion contest at the inn would have been PvP in the sense that the players seemed minimally invested in the outcome in the first place. But using a coin flip might just be a lot easier than explaining my thought process to the playgroup, so maybe that's simply what I would do in the future, and then I keep the fancier way of handling things for my live games where I can get a much better read of the group and communication for the sake of getting on the same page is a lot easier.