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  #12016  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 01:56 AM
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Oof, sorry that took so long. Finally got up a post to obtain a Helm of Opposite Alignment.

@Jarl: If it's okay with you, could you take it from here? You can roleplay Dru giving the helm to Fandrik and lying to him about what it does.
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  #12017  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekidnu
Well, you'll need to buy another spellbook first
I actually asked PIG in my personal thread a bit ago if he was worried about counting pages and, if I recall correctly, he said I didn't need to. Which is why I never bought another book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuul
So relevant information for both @PIG and as a fresh reminder for @Qiksilv...
Thanks, Yuul! I was planning on making a similar presentation but did not have the time. I appreciate your plea on my behalf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
As in you made a mistake as a player in doing that or was it a RP decision? I would hate to penalize you too heavily if it was just a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuul
To be fair, until several years ago I too could be considered 'uninitiated'.
Don't worry about "penalizing" me. As you can see, it's a common mistake (I'm assuming). So I'm not going to ask for a refund of the starting package I "wasted" or anything. Frankly, I don't think it's worth the effort to try and recall just how much I spent on scrolls during creation. Moving forward, however, I would like to try and do it the cheaper way if you are ok with it.

Quote:
In any case, we can do as Yuul and ekid say and build up a couple of Spellbooks over the period of the travel. How does that sound?
It sounds like you are ok with copying spells from other mage's books. Thanks! I have questions though.
1. Do these have the same availability as scrolls? If The place I am would have a scroll of the spell I want does it automatically have a mage who I could copy from instead? Or are those kinds of mages/Spellbook-Swap-Meets rarer?
2. Did you change your mind about counting pages in the spellbook? That is totally fine. I just want to make sure before I start counting.
2.b If we are counting now can I assume that I had all the books and things I needed from the start and just modify my sheet to reflect that or are you wanting me to RP that I 'forgot' a book and now need to fill it out? Copying spells takes 1 hour + 1 hour/ level so that will take quite a bit of time. He won't take that time to recreate a spellbook before we return to Kaptapesh so if I did "leave 1 at home" he'd just wait till he got there and was able to retrieve it.
2.c Speaking of time restraints, how long until we leave Kelmarene? Do I have time to copy a few spells before we leave town, or should I just wait?
3. I know you have been busy so it's not a big rush or anything but I wanted to make sure my previous question about accelerated crafting rates didn't get lost in the shuffle.
 


Quote:
Originally Posted by yuul
Blessed Book!~
If I need to count pages then this will definitely go on the list of things to get. I might even buy fewer spells so I can save up for it
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  #12018  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 08:37 AM
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It's not really the page count(regular spellbooks are dirt cheap, just have a set); it's the no inscription cost for writing a spell into it.
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  #12019  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 09:23 AM
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True, that would make it very cheap, after the cost of the item itself
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  #12020  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 12:23 PM
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Speaking of which, you did pay 10 gp to scribe the Share Memory spell right?

Personally (and of course PIG may do things differently) I treat magical services from NPCs as special events. Otherwise there is the potential for abuse. For example, a related but different matter is hiring someone to cast a spell for you. Kelmarane is a large town (purchase limit 10000 gp), so 5th level spellcasting is available. By the rules, that means we could hire an NPC to cast 4 teleport spells, at a total cost of 1800 gp (less than what Garavel just gave to a single PC), to take us all to Katapesh and completely bypass this worrisome 'travel' business. That seems a little too cheeky to me and I would fully expect the GM to say 'nope, there's no such NPC' or 'nope, he's out of town visiting his sister'.

Last edited by ekidnu; Oct 28th, 2021 at 12:24 PM.
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  #12021  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 03:37 PM
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Um... Yeah. Sure did.
?

No, thanks for reminding me. I did it now. I should probably add the gem rewards to my sheet too. Before I forget.

Availability was the reason asked for pig's thoughts. I could see it either going the way you suggested where I need to role play every time I buy a spell (probably a lot, I'm a wizard) or it could just play out as buying a commodity.

I think that hiring a npc is a little different than trying to copy spells from one but that's a matter of preferrence, I don't think either view is wrong or right so whichever way of says is fine

I forget about hiring npc's. Getting someone else to teleport is would have cool. Though it increases the likelyhood of having shenanigans carry on us by thieving npc's
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Last edited by Qiksilv; Oct 28th, 2021 at 03:40 PM.
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  #12022  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuul View Post
Uninitiated as in expensive scroll + inscription cost method most people assume is the only way(aside from looted spellbooks or traded spells between party members), when in reality you can buy them far cheaper via the entirely legal manner I described above.

To be fair, until several years ago I too could be considered 'uninitiated'.
This is something, however, that is totally up to GM views on the world, the people and the treasure they want available. I have had GMs that recognize the potential for magical imbalance (we all know that casters are much more powerful than melee focuses at higher levels) and have said that other magic users in the players' area guard their secrets very closely. For example, I can't imagine many competent wizards who spent many years in research to learn and develop spells to just give it out at cost any more than I expect a tech CEO would happily hand over their developments and secrets to other companies. The idea is great but in practice, I doubt it would be very common. Of course, that all depends on the GM and their views of the NPCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekidnu View Post
Oof, sorry that took so long. Finally got up a post to obtain a Helm of Opposite Alignment.

@Jarl: If it's okay with you, could you take it from here? You can roleplay Dru giving the helm to Fandrik and lying to him about what it does.
You got it!
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  #12023  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarl11 View Post
This is something, however, that is totally up to GM views on the world, the people and the treasure they want available. I have had GMs that recognize the potential for magical imbalance (we all know that casters are much more powerful than melee focuses at higher levels) and have said that other magic users in the players' area guard their secrets very closely. For example, I can't imagine many competent wizards who spent many years in research to learn and develop spells to just give it out at cost any more than I expect a tech CEO would happily hand over their developments and secrets to other companies. The idea is great but in practice, I doubt it would be very common. Of course, that all depends on the GM and their views of the NPCs.
Generally speaking, spells aren't 'developed' by a caster(though there are rules and guidelines for that); additionally, the rules for copying spells over do make specific mention of rare spells costing more, or just generally being unavailable. Again, most of the spells are the exact same just learned and relearned and passed around. Why would a a mage allow another mage access to their spellbook for a fee(presumably after a social check, and the like)?

More money for them to also get more spells. Additionally, unlike the spontaneous casters, prepared casters still need to actually prepare those spells. About the only exception is the 1/day spell from Bonded Object(If a wizard chose it over a familiar) or potentially methods like Preferred Spell or Greater Spell Specialization(I prefer the first one), but those have the limit of only allowing for the spontaneous casting of a single set spell, though you can burn any number of appropriately leveled slots or higher to cast it as many times as possible.

It really is the spellbook casters' schtick. Divine casters get everything already in their 'book', and spontaneous casters have their set spells known. Are prepared arcane casters more powerful than the latter? Sure, but only if they take advantage of their ability to learn more spells, and then properly prepare their spells tailored to the challenges they expect to face.

A Wizard that always prepares the same spells every time exactly really would be better off with a Sorcerer. I myself fall into this trap even these days on occasion.

In the end however, the DM may houserule as they wish.
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Last edited by Yuul; Oct 28th, 2021 at 07:50 PM.
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  #12024  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qiksilv View Post
I actually asked PIG in my personal thread a bit ago if he was worried about counting pages and, if I recall correctly, he said I didn't need to. Which is why I never bought another book.

Thanks, Yuul! I was planning on making a similar presentation but did not have the time. I appreciate your plea on my behalf.

Don't worry about "penalizing" me. As you can see, it's a common mistake (I'm assuming). So I'm not going to ask for a refund of the starting package I "wasted" or anything. Frankly, I don't think it's worth the effort to try and recall just how much I spent on scrolls during creation. Moving forward, however, I would like to try and do it the cheaper way if you are ok with it.

It sounds like you are ok with copying spells from other mage's books. Thanks! I have questions though.
1. Do these have the same availability as scrolls? If The place I am would have a scroll of the spell I want does it automatically have a mage who I could copy from instead? Or are those kinds of mages/Spellbook-Swap-Meets rarer?
2. Did you change your mind about counting pages in the spellbook? That is totally fine. I just want to make sure before I start counting.
2.b If we are counting now can I assume that I had all the books and things I needed from the start and just modify my sheet to reflect that or are you wanting me to RP that I 'forgot' a book and now need to fill it out? Copying spells takes 1 hour + 1 hour/ level so that will take quite a bit of time. He won't take that time to recreate a spellbook before we return to Kaptapesh so if I did "leave 1 at home" he'd just wait till he got there and was able to retrieve it.
2.c Speaking of time restraints, how long until we leave Kelmarene? Do I have time to copy a few spells before we leave town, or should I just wait?
3. I know you have been busy so it's not a big rush or anything but I wanted to make sure my previous question about accelerated crafting rates didn't get lost in the shuffle.
 


If I need to count pages then this will definitely go on the list of things to get. I might even buy fewer spells so I can save up for it
1) I wouldn't make it automatic. It would have to be in Kelmarane, Katapesh city, or in smaller towns like El-Fatar.
2) To make things easier let's not count it, if that's what I already said.
2b) See 2
2c) It looks like the mind-read of Drusilla was on the night of the Baron's betrayal. You will all be leaving the next day. If you need extra time I'm sure the other PCs will work with you. Just keep in mind that traveling at night might have some penalties.
3) Got it I'm wondering if it would just be easier to give Pontiac a Spellbooks with all of the spells written in. I don't like going back on things, it can be a bad habit, but I just wanted to see how you feel.
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  #12025  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 08:34 PM
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@everyone: I had an item thread to track money and items the PCs found or when they bought something. It prevented miscalculations or lazy players from gaining/losing money or items because they were not properly tracking everything. After a while I just didn't have the time to track it and abandoned it and have relied on all of you to properly take care of your treasure and equipment.

I propose that all of you still track how much money you have, how much you spend, what items you sell, and what items you buy/find with out me poking around too much. But I was wondering if you guys would be cool in me opening a folder where each of you keep a list of:

1) Current Money
2) Items Bought/Gained/Lost/Sold

You only post when there is a change in 1 or 2. That way there at least some sort of receipt and I don't have to have the headache of always checking sheets.

How's that sound?

Still terribly busy. Really looking forward to the next posts and moving on.
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  #12026  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 09:52 PM
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Why don’t we just keep a thread and update it when things change?
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  #12027  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 10:33 PM
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1. OK. I'll let you know when I want to buy a spell and you can tell if I can find someone to get it from. The awkward part of this arrangement is how difficult it will be to figure how many spells I can afford to get at any particular time due to the large price difference between buying a scroll or copying from a book. Not impossible. Just awkward.

2. Found it what you actually said was, "Spellbook pages? Never thought about it. Let's return to this when I catch up on posting."

I guess that means it's time to return to it? Lol

2.b I suppose this is a relevant question again?

3. I'm confused on how your 3 answers my 3. I'm also confused on what you wrote. I'm sure you aren't saying a have a book with all the spells written in it but that is what it sounds like. Do you just mean that after I figure out how many books I'm supposed to have based on page count that I'm good to just tweak the sheet to show what should actually be on it without making me choose which spells I have in the one book I own? Or are you giving me an exhaustive spell encyclopedia set?

2.c I'm not going to make us wait. I'll either just wait till Katapesh, get a scroll and copy while flying, or try and get a late night copy session in with a local mage clerk.

I'm fine with posting a list of items and purchases. Communal thread, individual thread, or updating a single post. Whatever makes life easier for you, boss

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Last edited by Qiksilv; Oct 28th, 2021 at 10:33 PM.
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  #12028  
Old Oct 28th, 2021, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIG View Post
I propose that all of you still track how much money you have, how much you spend, what items you sell, and what items you buy/find with out me poking around too much. But I was wondering if you guys would be cool in me opening a folder where each of you keep a list of:

1) Current Money
2) Items Bought/Gained/Lost/Sold
You mean like this one?

@PIG: Would it be okay if we assumed that, along with a mount of our choice, Garavel/Almah provides enough food/water for both camel and rider for the journey, along with saddlebags, bedroll, tent, etc?

I'm normally all for tracking encumbrance and every single bit of gear—it makes sense if you're 1st level and exploring the forbidden forest for the first time. But we're all 7th/8th level with a generous benefactor to provide for our needs—it might be easier for everyone concerned if we just assume we're all provided with the necessary mundane gear for the trip.

Last edited by ekidnu; Oct 28th, 2021 at 11:19 PM. Reason: add a question
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  #12029  
Old Oct 29th, 2021, 11:05 AM
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I've been tracking it for Fandrik on his sheet but am happy to resume using the thread you gave me already (just like Ekidnu's). Am at work but will do this later, along with a post for Fan getting the helm.

Squeak - if that's ok, I was going to wait to give it to Grak until we meet to take off. I'm thinking the PCs are all running around doing their thing so Fan likely won't see Grak again until they meet to depart.
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  #12030  
Old Oct 29th, 2021, 01:17 PM
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A few concerns with waiting until it's time to leave.

I expect Grak to be a basket case for a day or two after this happens. Imagine if all of the bad things you have done comes crashing down to you all at once?

The other concern is that Grak wouldn't agree to bring the pups. Of course, you could just not let him know until then.


Is there a reason we need to race to get this done? Grak could always meet up with you if needed.
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