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Old May 22nd, 2017, 08:17 PM
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D2 Necromancer in D&D

Why am I getting such flack over importing the class from TSR 11760?
They even SAY you can do it.

Lvl 1:
Bone Shield: +1 ac/lvl; absorbs 6hp/lvl; requires bones from medium body. Lasts until destroyed.
Raise Skeleton: clr3 1skel/lvl
Amplify Damage (Curse): 25' +2'/lvl 1 creature takes +1d6 dmg to all melee attacks received; 1 round
Teeth: 30' 1d6 dmg/lvl (up to 5); splays out in a fan; dmg/creatures together; further away, further fans out.
Lvl 2:
Poison Dagger: 1 round/lvl; Fort save vs 1d4 dmg to temp Const.
Clay Golem: 1min/lvl; only summon allowed; dmg 1d6+3; slows target AC12 more info available, can be adjusted
Weaken (Curse): 15' radius -1 dmg rolls; 1 round/lvl
Lvl 3:
Bone Wall: range 100' +10'/lvl; 10' h x 5'/lvl w; hp=1d10/lvl; 1 round
Iron Maiden (Curse): touch; 1 round/lvl; creature takes 1 dmg for every 2 it inflicts.
Raise Skeleton Mage: clr4 1/lvl >4; elemental range attack, poison, cold, fire, lightning, something like 3d6

But I got a bunch of negativity. Is there such resistance to a Necromancer because under D&D rules, they're "evil"?
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 12:53 PM
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What's your problem exactly?

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking for.
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 01:41 PM
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Wait, is this the Diablo II Necromancer?

What edition of DnD is this being converted to, because​ that will answer a few things.
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 06:34 PM
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based on another thread, it appears the OP wants to convert to 5th edition.
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkoth View Post
based on another thread, it appears the OP wants to convert to 5th edition.
....Wowza...

Yeah, Elflesh my new friend, I think I found your problem....I'm going to say it has absolutely nothing with being "evil".

Just looking at things at a glance here from what you have posted, this thing looks just broken in 5th Edition. I mean, Create Undead is a 6th level spell in 5e, but this class has it as an SLA at level 1 (which by the way allows it to bypass the steep material cost that the spell has).

Can this be converted to 5e? I've seen harder things done for sure. But it's going to take some work to make it balanced.
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Old May 24th, 2017, 02:57 PM
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Aren't some of those abilities only available in Diablo 2 at character levels 6, 12, 18, 24, or 30?
How can you justify they all come to a 3rd level 5e character?

And, have you read the Wizard section of D&D 5e yet? School of Necromancy is already there.
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Old May 27th, 2017, 10:22 AM
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Ya, but from a game I played with a sphincter of a DM, it was just a regular D&D wizard that focuses on Necromancer spells. Extremely few of which are the Diablo ones.
When I wrote lvl, I meant the lvl of the spell. Since a necromancer doesn't DO anything else, I thought the spells should be more or less OK. If you think they need to wait for a certain XP level of character, that's fine. But I expect to see Diablo2 spells like Bone Shield, Curses, Poison spells, etc. Certainly an eventual skeleton army!
When I was helping playtest "D&D next", I was summoning a skeleton at lvl 1, but it had no attack. It was basically a vision extension scout. I'd tolerate that if I had to.

I thought a skilled DM would be able to set up a spell system that could work. We could submit to WoC!
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Old May 27th, 2017, 11:15 AM
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I don't know 5e well, but if you are just looking to play a necromancer, that shouldn't be too hard. Wizard, cleric or summoner, focus on necromancy.

In 3.5/Pathfinder, it's easy. The spells at the levels you have listed below are a bit over-powered, but that can be fixed. Bone Shield can simply be a re-fluffed shield spell (it's the duration from Diablo that needs fixed mostly, along with the +1 AC/Level). Adjust to +1 AC, and minutes per level or so, and you are good.

Summon undead covers a lot of the summoning/creating, at the better power levels.
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Old May 27th, 2017, 05:37 PM
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The idea of Bone Shield is just to absorb physical dmg. It doesn't necessarily add to AC anyway. The duration of spell wasn't applicable to BS; only to curses; maybe Bone Spirit.
I think alot of these spells already appear in D&D in a similar form?
Anyway, what's wrong with raising one skeleton at level 1 that can attack and cause like 1d3 dmg? A squishy Necro can't do much more himself.

Last edited by elflesh; May 27th, 2017 at 05:38 PM.
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Old May 27th, 2017, 07:15 PM
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Technically, absorbing damage is what a shield does. That's what AC is, the ability of material, reflexes, etc., to absorb damage.

Shield spell already exists, so for a necromancer, just refluff it so that it's made from the bones of dead, or a grave shroud hardened like steel, or... And it does +1 AC, perhaps rising to +2 with a Greater Bone Shield later as a higher level spell.

Summon undead already gets you a skeleton, and it does normal attack/damage. If you just want a weak servant around for a longer time, then the unseen servant spell could be refluffed to be a skeleton servant. It can do all the things unseen servant can, and none of the things unseen servant can't.

If you want a skeletal companion, even one that does 1d3 damage, you could refluff a familiar into such a skeleton, with all the pros and cons of a familiar, and that would not be much of an increase in power level at all.

I see no reason you couldn't refluff most of the Diablo necromancer into a 3.5/PF necromancer, with an eye towards proper balance and play.
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Old May 27th, 2017, 08:27 PM
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This is where I'm having problems. DMs seem insistant that it fit into the D&D spell set, while I insist it be - balanced - Diablo spells. Bone Armor absorbs physical damage only. In Diablo2 itself it is a lvl 1 spell that absorbs 20 dmg for a caster that has 45 hit points to start. It lasts until destroyed. That sounds pretty appropriate for me; especially if you remove the +AC/lvl. Otherwise, I don't see a problem with a spell that gives you only 6hp protection for physical...what do others think?
Do you think it could be an appropriate cantrip?

Since Necromancers also raise skeletons at lvl 1 that can go and fight for them, what is the problem with it here? It would be appropriate strength for the scenario I play in - identical to the bad ones we face. Only I would get just one of them. But that also could be a cantrip. (I found Unseen Servant to be ludicrous for what I want.)

The thing I asked in another thread about importing items (since we're talking about importing spells here) would be wands that grant skills. "+1 to raise skeleton" could be a way of having another skeleton after the first one is destroyed if it isn't a cantrip skill.
I thought however, that a good Necro feature should be to absorb a few points of life whenever something living dies within 20'; only it would be an automatic feature, and not a cantrip?

Maybe it would be helpful to copy the spell list and comment on what you would/would not allow in YOUR game.

Last edited by elflesh; May 27th, 2017 at 08:34 PM.
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Old May 28th, 2017, 12:55 AM
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discussing spell/power balance is fine with me... I am happy to have an opinion. Take it or leave it, of course... like all opinions, it's worth nothing. Of course, all my experience is 3.5/Pathfinder, and you are actually wanting to convert to 5e, so... this may all be a moot exercise.

If you want a shield (spell) that absorbs damage, you are looking at something that either has Damage Reduction (DR), or simply absorbs hit points and is lost. That's fine as a starting point too. However, I can think of absolutely NO cantrips that are that powerful, and I would have to explore a bit more in the spell arena to be sure, but I can't think of a first level spell that gives Damage Reduction, and certainly not one that absorbs hit points. Another thing to remember is that in Pathfinder, Cantrips are unlimited... cast as many times a day as needed. So, a spell that gives a constant 6 DR (magic) is way overpowered. As a spell that absorbs 20 points of damage, then gets cast again for another 20 points, and again, and again, all day long? Way too powerful.

The problem with raising a skeleton at level 1 is that it remains around, forever. In 3.5, that's too powerful for the class. Raising undead means a lot of control. Summoning them means less control. Raising means they are yours, 24x7. Summoning means they are yours for a few minutes, kind of.

Again, you might be able to fluff a pathfinder summoner into making the equivalent of a skeletal edilon, perhaps. If it cost the same and operated the same, I'd have no problem with it (other than the fact that the summoner is likely the most powerful PF class).

The wand you are asking about doesn't make sense to me, the way you describe it. You could certainly have a wand/spell/charm that grants +1 to a skill. But, in 3.5, it wouldn't allow you to have another skeleton via your spell... skills and spells are very separate things.
It could add +1 or +2 to your craft skeleton skill, or your profession necromancer, or whatever skill you use to make skeletons, but it wouldn't add more spells to your daily totals.
If you were looking to add more daily spell use, that would be the equivalent to a pearl of power, and a wand like that COULD be made, but it would be just as expensive as the Pearl...

As for the life/HP absorption, again... there are spells like that in 3.5, but to have it as an automatic feature would need to be balanced. That's kind of like a permanent Vampiric Touch, without the Touch (at range). That would be a tremendous spell, and as a class feature/ability, would make a PC very powerful (ie, even vampires can't do that... so what does that say about a 1st level PC?).

Everything is negotiable with a DM... What would your necromancer be giving up, to have the ability to absorb lost hit points from injured people?
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Old May 28th, 2017, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkoth View Post
Everything is negotiable with a DM... What would your necromancer be giving up, to have the ability to absorb lost hit points from injured people?
Remove the ability to heal normally at resting?
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Old May 28th, 2017, 03:27 PM
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I can't even tell if we're talking about 3.5E or 5E at this point, but for 3.5E: Play a dread necromancer, use extra spell to take the spells you need (with the permissive read of extra spell), refluff as necessary.

Bone Shield: Use False Life.
Raise Skeleton: Use Animate Dead
Amplify Damage (Curse): Use Power Word: Pain (okay; fluff stretch)
Teeth:: Use Burning Hands (refluff)

Poison Dagger: Refluff ray of enfeeblement (Poison Dagger: Strength), Ray of Clumsiness (Poison Dagger: Dex), and Poison (spell) (Poison Dagger: Con).
Clay Golem:: Use regular clay golem rules.
Weaken (Curse): Use Bane, refluffed.

Bone Wall:: Use Wall of Stone, Refluffed.
Iron Maiden (Curse): Use the complete mage Retribution line; Karmic Retribution / etc.
Raise Skeleton Mage:: Use Animate Dead.

I have literally no idea why we're talking about making new versions of things that already exist. You can play a Diablo 2 necromancer in 3.5E. You just play a dread necromancer and when you cast False Life you describe it as a swirling aura of bones, and when you cast Poison you describe yourself as touching them with dagger instead of hand, and when you cast Wall of Stone you describe it as bones instead of stone.

Problem solved. You maybe need to talk about 1 or 2 homebrewed spells, but that's stretching it.
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Old May 28th, 2017, 04:16 PM
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OK, well nobody ever told me anything like that. So is my spell list as is OK then?

(also I wrote this before the answer above):
Skels can be toned down in dmg. Seeing how a Barb has ~double the attack and hp of a Nec, I really can't see how the Skel makes him OP; given most his dmg dealt is through his skels/golem. These Skels are 50-50 for control; it's a toss up as to whether it will disengage and aid the Nec being attacked. It's an iffy bodyguard at best which can only be commanded 50% of the time to attack a certain target or hold back from fighting. That's it. No carrying items, no waiting tables, no message carrying, no delivering flowers...

The Nec sits in the back, letting his minions take on the monsters while he supplements them with curses. He retains the poison dagger for anything that gets too close.

The cantrip should be to absorb maybe even ONE HP per creature slain within 20'; he feeds on the essence of life going to death. Not on blood. He can replenish his own lost life this way, not add higher than what it's limit normally is. He spends his own blood (HP) to summon HIS version of a Blood Golem or cast Bone Spirit.

TSR11612: "We've created new AD&D character kits from the Diablo classes"
p4: "However, every DM should be tempted (if we've done our jobs right) to add this material into their own games one spell, item, or kit at a time. Please feel free to do so but use caution."

TSR11760: "...built specially for the D&D version of D2 - though they'll also fit pretty well into any D&D campaign setting."
p.22: "DM's mixing the rules into a D&D campaign should rely on their own judgement to resolve conflicts."
p.23 "With your DM's approval, you can invent new areas of knowledge."
p.45 "only 1 summoning spell in effect at one time" i.e. can only have skels, OR skel mages OR Golem ; so, not OP.
In fact, the Diablerie keeps referring to the DMG, the Player's Handbook, and the Monster Manual for more info.

Given that this material was approved by a TSR publication, I really don't get all the DMs resistance to it.

Since nobody would allow it in Adventure League, I don't see any point to making it work in v5. If someone thinks they can - please show me!
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