OOC Without a doubt the least original OOC thread name ever. - Page 4 - RPG Crossing
RPG Crossing Home Forums Create An Account! Site Rules & Help

RPG Crossing
Go Back   RPG Crossing > Games > Dungeons & Dragons: 3.5e > Homebrew: N-R > Obeisance
twitter facebook

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #46  
Old 02-23-2011, 12:38 PM
Alesch's Avatar
Alesch Alesch is offline
Mister President
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-11-2012
RPXP: 1708
Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch
Posts: 1,167
I've honestly never played 3.0 so I have no idea if there were monster classes instead of monster HD though I suspect that isn't the case since the exact phrasing reads:
Quote:
A feral creature gains additional special attacks depending on its Hit Dice, as shown on the table below. It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice, plus all those in previous rows.
Granted that's pretty unclearly written, like so much else that WotC publishes (ToB anyone?) but that definitely implies monstrous HD to me. I can't help reading it as "The powers the Feral template scales based on HD so that you can apply it to monsters of any level and it will still provide a noticeable and scaling increase in power. These HD (the monstrous HD) are the HD that it scales from." One reason for this interpretation is that if class levels did factor in then this would be the only template, at least to my knowledge, that scales as a player gains levels. Templates don't scale because it doesn't make sense for them to do so. After all, if a template's cost is a +1 LA and its initial bonuses (which in the case of every other template in the game are the only bonuses) are balanced to meet that cost and they continue to increase from there then the effective cost of the template is decreasing.

Ask yourself this: would it be better to play a level 15 Druid or a level 14 Druid with the Feral template? The fact that the Feral template is so blindingly superior, especially with the interpretation you've chosen, demonstrates that it's LA isn't in line with its bonuses. It's the same way that you determine level adjustments for monstrous races. If a race (or template) is obviously superior to a character of equivalent ECL built from a base race then the level adjustment is not correct.

Here is the main problem with taking the Feral template in this game (as I see it). The party is composed of Tier 3 and 4 classes, while your character is a Tier 1. That in itself wouldn't be a huge problem and it certainly wouldn't be your fault, the group chose their characters on their own after all. The problem is that with the template your character becomes vastly superior to the other characters in the group. Let's compare their stats and abilities for a moment.

Quote:
Defences
Squalo di Toro - HP: 30, AC: 14 (May rise to 20 if he gets his armour), Saves: F+5,R+4,W+8, Special: DR 5/silver
Coleman Grant - HP: 50, AC: 17, Saves: F+6,R+7,W+3, Special: None
Feral Claw - HP: 50, AC: 12 (Rises to 16 w/buff, may get armour), Saves: F+6,R+3,W+4, Special: Elan Resilience Ability
Keothi - HP: 58, AC: 17, Saves: F+9,R+3,W+1, Special: None
Ashwoaden - HP: 52, AC: 22, Saves: F+7,R+1,W+9, Special: Fast Healing 3
Quote:
Physical Offense
Squalo di Toro - Spear, Melee +5 (1d8+3, x3) or Bite, Melee +5 (1d6+2, x2). No full attack.
Coleman Grant - Bow, Ranged (220') +10 (1d8+2, x3) or Scimitar, Melee +7 (1d6+1, 18-20x2). No full attack.
Feral Claw - Greatsword, Melee +6 (2d6+4 +1d6 cold, 19-20x2). No full attack.
Keothi - Bow, Ranged (110') +6 (2d6, x3) or Great Hammer, Melee +10 (3d6+7, x4). No full attack.
Ashwoaden - Claw, Melee +4 (2d6+1, x2). Full attack: 2 claws +4/+4 (2d6+1)
Quote:
Casting Capabilities
Squalo di Toro - None
Coleman Grant - None
Feral Claw - Secondary
Keothi - None
Ashwoaden - Full caster
Quote:
Other Special Qualities
Squalo di Toro - Scent, Low-light vision, Blind Sense (aquatic only), Keen Scent (aquatic only).
Coleman Grant - None
Feral Claw - Elan Resistance, Elan Repletion, Aberration immunities.
Keothi - Powerful Build, Mountain movement, Acclimated
Ashwoaden - Fey immunities, Immunity to sleep, Manifestation bonuses, Improved Grab, Pounce, Darkvision 60'
Ashwoaden seems to be near the top, if not at the top, of every category. Most of this comes from the template. The problem is that any encounter that is balanced for the rest of the party will be a breeze for Ashwoaden. Any encounter that is balanced for Ashwoaden stands a good chance of wiping the party. The imbalance in characters strengths will likely result in the rest of the players being relegated to minor supporting roles in any combat situation. While there's nothing wrong with optimizing a character and the response to one character being more optimized than the rest in a group is not always for the optimized character to voluntarily nerf themselves (sometimes you just have to help the other guys beef their toons up a bit) it's a bit of an issue when that optimization stems purely from interpreting rules as loosely as possible or outright disregarding them.

I want to make sure that even if we do decide to keep the character as is that it isn't because we aren't aware of the issues that will come up as a result. As it stands Ashwoaden overshadows the group to such a degree that he will almost certainly become the central figure in the group no matter how you play him. He won't be the Hero so much as the Ace and that's the best case scenario. He runs the danger of being utter ********. I'm not saying that it will be utter ********, just that the mechanics will encourage it.

Druids are utter ********one of the most powerful classes in the game and the Feral template is super-mega-ultra-kamehameha ********far and away the strongest +1 LA template (or race, whatever) that I've ever seen as well. The Rule of Cool is all well and good but it'll be best to make sure that everyone knows going in that we'll be playing vastly unequal characters. Just look at what the Goliath gets for an equal level adjustment. Heck, look what poor Craigthulu gets for a higher one.

Personally I think the template would be fine if it lost the special attacks and the special qualities. It might possibly be better to choose between being a Monstrous Humanoid (and so getting the d10 HD, which I think only apply to your monstrous HD seeing as it also says that your type becomes Monstrous Humanoid) and being a Fey (and so getting the immunities and special stuff for that). All I ask is that the consequences of the character/group dynamic be considered before our character sheets get finalized.

-----------------------------------------------------

Edit: Wow, I didn't realize how wordy that was! Sorry about that.

TL;DR: Powerful character is Powerful.

Last edited by Alesch; 02-23-2011 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Forgot a very key 'not' >.<
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:27 PM
Snickersnack's Avatar
Snickersnack Snickersnack is offline
Whiffling Through
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-16-2013
RPXP: 545
Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack
Posts: 513
Oh shame. There isn't a even single person in the restaurant to justify my 30 or so HD in Waitress. Time to whip out the dorky glasses and the laptop.

So, Alesch, I have two things to say that are entirely subjective. One: I'm thrilled that you cut away to tvtropes. I've spent a disgusting amount of time on the website. Two: The items are not worth considering in terms of power just yet because the current ones have been granted mainly for flavor/style (Ram's Head of Sending vs. Gap Shooter). Good bling is something that I like to balance early, and then drop rewardingly every now and then from the heavens like supernal coconuts.

My grandmother has moved on (physically and spiritually) and so I am back home and not threatened by a nine hour drive to Toronto to attend her funeral any more. If I seemed a little bit distant these past three days... I have an excuse.

I'm not looking forward to deciding on the feral template.

EDIT: ARG. FEY. Even though Alesch mentioned it several times it didn't sink in until now. Gah.

Last edited by Snickersnack; 02-23-2011 at 02:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:38 PM
Slolivin's Avatar
Slolivin Slolivin is offline
Great Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 06-12-2011
RPXP: 223
Slolivin Slolivin Slolivin
Posts: 1,990
Glad things are settling down a bit Snicker. And on the feral it's a tough choice that is discussed quite a bit in d&d forums. Some people love it, others hate it, others offer trimmed down versions, others scale the LA up as the player grows, etc. etc. etc. Looking forward to what you decide to do with it.

On a side note, the game where I am a feral half-orc just started. I have 24 str (rolled an 18) giving me a claw attack of +8 with 1d8+10 damage and +6 natural armor. I won't be gaining another level for a bit due to the +1 LA, but that's not a bad start for a lvl 1 character. Still waiting for the ruling on fast healing from my DM, but he is a beast even without it at level 1!!!
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:56 PM
Snickersnack's Avatar
Snickersnack Snickersnack is offline
Whiffling Through
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-16-2013
RPXP: 545
Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack
Posts: 513
Can I have sources on Ashwoaden's spells for quicker reference, Rosstafar? Perhaps you could put them in the memorized slot, since we're not going to be using the character sheet for that.

Coleman Grant's favored enemy is Humanoid (Human), However, he is good aligned. If he weren't a human himself I would be alright with that, however, I think that his alignment should be CN. If this isn't acceptable, then you will have to change his favored enemy. (Magical Beast or Animal are very logical enemies considering the setting and his time spent in the wilderness.)




(snickersnack: unafraid of paltry things like double posts and cheesecake (EDIT: ...or making herself look like a grand fool))

Last edited by Snickersnack; 02-23-2011 at 03:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-23-2011, 03:05 PM
Alesch's Avatar
Alesch Alesch is offline
Mister President
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-11-2012
RPXP: 1708
Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch
Posts: 1,167
A potential alternative for Coleman would be to use the Favored Environment variant from Unearthed Arcana (or Complete Warrior, I can't remember) and pick forest. Kickass anywhere where there are trees nearby. Maniacal cackling not included.

Snickersnack, I'm glad you liked the tvtropes links. Unfortunately I'm not all too happy about having to get them because I am now caught in the tvtropes vortex! Look what you have wrought Rosstafar! I am undone! Undoooooooone!
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 02-23-2011, 03:55 PM
Craigthulu's Avatar
Craigthulu Craigthulu is offline
Great Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-28-2020
RPXP: 14807
Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu
Posts: 7,232
Since the rules for the lycanthrope subtype are a little unclear, the ruling that I am going to go with is that I would still get the skills and bonus feats. My line of reasoning is that if a Dwarf or Elf became a lycanthrope they wouldn't lose the racial bonuses or the ability boosts they get when they become a lycanthrope. With this line of reasoning I don't see why a human would be penalized when every other race would not be. If anyone feels this is unfair, or overpowered tell me your arguments against it or my reasoning. Otherwise I am going to go ahead and assume I get the skill points at each level plus the bonus feat.

Ross, please don't make a game breaking caster. I understand wanting to use a cool template for the sake of being cool, but druids can easily break any game without much effort. Case in point as a level five druid I killed a hydra without taking any damage what so ever by abusing two spells in a way that didn't break a single rule. Maybe as an alternative way of leveling up you could use your template as a class and alternate druid and feral levels similar to how savage species or blood lines work.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Alesch's Avatar
Alesch Alesch is offline
Mister President
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-11-2012
RPXP: 1708
Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch
Posts: 1,167
Uh, yeah Craig that would be how you do it. Lycanthrope is a template, not a race. In this case you would still have your base race of human. So yeah, enjoy your skill points. Honestly as it stands right now Squalo is probably the weakest character in the group. Those 3 HD aren't helping you out much buddy. The DR will help with weapons and stuff but your wereshark is what we in the There is no industry.industry refer to as Fireballable.

Remember the zany adventure's of Ryan's wizard and the green dragon? Yeah.

Last edited by Alesch; 02-23-2011 at 04:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-23-2011, 04:37 PM
Snickersnack's Avatar
Snickersnack Snickersnack is offline
Whiffling Through
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-16-2013
RPXP: 545
Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack
Posts: 513
Alesch, It's horrible, isn't it. I get ready to sleep at a reasonable time every night, and then sit down in front of my compu—four hours later I've got six tabs open and I'm opening more as I read about some ****ing video game I'm never going to play and some literary device favored by the australian sci fi movement of the eighties...

Favored Environments get the seal of very cool.

The Feral Template, however, is turning out to be something of a large pain in the neck. The book says that it cannot be applied to a fey, and that makes sense to me. Who ever heard of a feral fey? The problem stems from the ambiguous nature of the killoren themselves. Without the fey stamp upon their barklike rumps I would totally believe that they were some sort of humanoid and like all the other stuff was done by a wizard. Now I am poisoned, and they are forever fey in my mind.

As far as meta and fluff and style go, I do want you—Rosstafar—to play a druid with claws and an overactive lizard brain. I want you to be born with no single father or mother, and no other purpose on earth other than to work for it and to save it. However... I also want to play a D&D game.

Perhaps a wild elf, a few doctored feats, and a couple of gods from the machine could fix a lot? The background is most fluid. Think old fashioned fairy-tale elves and how magically and nature inclined they were. Does something like this interest you?
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-23-2011, 04:45 PM
Craigthulu's Avatar
Craigthulu Craigthulu is offline
Great Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-28-2020
RPXP: 14807
Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu
Posts: 7,232
I am going to make up for the 3HD by taking two barbarian levels. I may be the only person to take barbarian solely for the d12 hit die. Also the plus 4 con at second warshaper level will be nice. For now AoE spells and my 3HD will be wrench in the gears.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-23-2011, 06:47 PM
Snickersnack's Avatar
Snickersnack Snickersnack is offline
Whiffling Through
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-16-2013
RPXP: 545
Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack Snickersnack
Posts: 513
Getting some toughness feats might not be a bad idea either...

We will start playing as soon as Rosstafar decides what he wants to do with Ashwoaden.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-23-2011, 07:29 PM
Craigthulu's Avatar
Craigthulu Craigthulu is offline
Great Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 04-28-2020
RPXP: 14807
Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu Craigthulu
Posts: 7,232
Not to sound needy but have you come to a decision about the gear I requested.

+1 wild chain mail

After looking through the Magic Item Compendium, the cloak of thorns looks very appealing. +2 to natural armor bonus, 1d4 +3 points of peircing damage to attacks made by natural weapons or melee weapons. If you added any pluses to control shape or made it wild it would be incredible for me. Either of those enhancements would raise this from being valued at 13000 gold to about 25 000.

Last edited by Craigthulu; 02-23-2011 at 07:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-23-2011, 07:45 PM
Slolivin's Avatar
Slolivin Slolivin is offline
Great Wyrm
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 06-12-2011
RPXP: 223
Slolivin Slolivin Slolivin
Posts: 1,990
I'm also waiting on word of my item:

Item of Power designed by you: Bands he wears on his biceps with colorful feathers attached (red, green, blue, white, etc.) I was thinking of having the feathers do some sort of healing. A ring of Rapid Healing (300,000 gp) gives a person fast healing 3, so I imagine giving fast healing 1 would be a bit overpowered. Maybe a toned down healing. Like 1 hp every 10 min?

If that?s still too much maybe they provide a natural armor bonus or a damage reduction. Say Natural Armor +1 and DR 1.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-23-2011, 07:57 PM
GetSomeLeaves's Avatar
GetSomeLeaves GetSomeLeaves is offline
Moosen!
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 08-14-2011
RPXP: 146
GetSomeLeaves GetSomeLeaves
Posts: 562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickersnack View Post
Can I have sources on Ashwoaden's spells for quicker reference, Rosstafar? Perhaps you could put them in the memorized slot, since we're not going to be using the character sheet for that.

Coleman Grant's favored enemy is Humanoid (Human), However, he is good aligned. If he weren't a human himself I would be alright with that, however, I think that his alignment should be CN. If this isn't acceptable, then you will have to change his favored enemy. (Magical Beast or Animal are very logical enemies considering the setting and his time spent in the wilderness.)
I look at Favored Enemies not so much as "I like killing these" but "I know so much about you that I know what you are thinking and going to do so that helps me when I fight and/or deal with you" He's not really so much of a hunter of humans as he just knows how to deal with them.

With that said, I'm going to go with the Favored Environment variant anyway. It doesn't include the damage bonus, but it'll probably get more use. I was planning on taking the Temperate/Cold Forest Environ and the Hills Environ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickersnack
Oh shame. There isn't a even single person in the restaurant to justify my 30 or so HD in Waitress. Time to whip out the dorky glasses and the laptop.
I hope you've maxed out your Patience skill.


As for the Feral debate, which by now seems to have been decided, I think that although that template gives big bonuses to combat, that's not all that D&D is. Don't get me wrong, I love trying to find a way to make my characters more powerful and whats the point of all those numbers if you don't use them.

Again, combat isn't the only thing and where some people excel others are deficient. God forbid if Ashwoaden would have to do the talking for our group. And being stealthy is not his strong suit.

Just my $.02
__________________
Cat, K-A-T, I'm outta here!
I know there's two T's
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-23-2011, 08:02 PM
Alesch's Avatar
Alesch Alesch is offline
Mister President
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 01-11-2012
RPXP: 1708
Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch Alesch
Posts: 1,167
In all fairness talking isn't any of our strong suits (mechanically at least. The diplomacy skill is wonky anyway).
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-23-2011, 08:53 PM
ByronBulb's Avatar
ByronBulb ByronBulb is offline
dilige et quod vis fac
 
Tools
User Statistics
Last Visit: 10-24-2018
RPXP: 8103
ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb ByronBulb
Posts: 5,074
Just on lunch now, way too much to read an reply to in half an hour of lnch break Sorry if this is a little abrupt.

Couple of quick points:
1. It was never my intention to make a ridiculous, game destroying character. Sorry if it appears that way.
2. I like the Killoren race, I'll probably keep that and just drop the feral template entirely.
3. I finish work in... four and a half hours, modifying my sheet'll take me about half an hour to an hour after that.

Feel free to start introductions without me, I'll read where we're up to when I get home again this evening.
__________________
GM: The Last Journey.
Status: Catching up.
everybody equal always
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:13 PM.
Skin by Birched, making use of original art by paiute.( 2009-2012)


RPG Crossing, Copyright ©2003 - 2020, RPG Crossing Inc; powered by vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Template-Modifications by TMB