[OOC] We Apologize for the Inconvenience [OOC Thread]

[Makenshi]

This is where we chat/discuss things Out of CharacterOOC.

~MTWC

[Makenshi]

Just so you know Blue, Jhess wouldn't be able to have Balefire as a weave. It's forbidden knowledge not unlike compulsions.

~MTWC

[Blue]

Well, there isn't really any useful trait for me but since I have to take one because of the prerequisites so I figured I might as well get the Balefire trait in case it is used against us so she would be able to learn it.
It might, perhaps, also discourage you from doing so. :P
Also, forbidden or otherwise seen in a very bad light, doesn't made it cannot be done if the opportunity to learn it happens. It's up to the channeler's standards and judgement (even those with the best intentions lose their scruples at times).

I'll update to fit the requested norms. The spell list isn't necessarily all the weaves she knows, just those that seem possible to learn.
There aren't so many weaves so I can fit them all in there.

I probably have a few questions on your conversions, many I've forgotten but will likely come back to me.
Like that many classes do not have Craft and Profession in the skill list. The Aes Sedai knowledge class skills are pretty limited considering the list of lessons they receive at the tower in their training (I recall there were history lessons).

Wonder if you forgot to give the Wilders their +5 bonus to the checks involving overchanneling or removed it on purpose.

Wise One's Unravel Weave. You told me the range but you didn't list it yet. Didn't state the kind of action it took either, if any.

What happens when you multiclass Initiate and Wilder, besides bonus to AC stacking?
They essentially have the very same casting progression and, unlike the wizard/sorcerer, they channel weaves the very same way. (They have differences but there isn't much in the casting mechanism)
Should they have two channeling progressions in parallel or they progress the same one?

For the channelers, is it normal that they get the slowing at level 3? Isn't it a trait that comes merely because you can channel and not because you got good at it?
You can technically get a single level in Initiate and enter Aes Sedai at level 6. You get the ageless face(?) but you age normally.

In normal settings you can pay casters/scrolls to teach you new spells. Can we use our money to learn weaves? Mostly wondering because living among a community of channelers and getting out of there knowing just a few weaves out of all the weaves you see (and technically learn) everyday from your colleagues is a little awkward.
What I read from the books also gives me the impression that many low level weaves were instinctively known by some channelers merely because they had affinities for it.

Others might come to me later.

[Makenshi]

@ Balefire: By Forbidden I don't mean 'difficult to find' I mean 'expunged from most records, not taught and can get you stilled for even revealing that you know it', so I'm still going to have to veto it without training from someone who knows it (which isn't realistically going to happen during the campaign). Even the Forsaken, as a rule, don't teach it to Dreadlords, so the chances of you encountering it are slim to none unless you pick a fight with one of them (which won't end well for you, since they're protected by plot armour).

I'd personally suggest taking the overcoming Block feat if you just need to use one up (AFB at the moment so can't remember it's actual name), since she's otherwise wasting actions when others around her aren't under threat (or if she's by herself or doesn't have a strong desire to protect the people around her).

The whole point of a block is that it's supposed to be a drawback, so I am going to be strict on the enforcement of it I should warn.

@ Craft/Profession: I've used the WoT book as a template for this in the non-Core classes, though I'll agree with you on Knowledge History for Aes Sedai. Otherwise, that's what traits are for.

@ Overchannel: Not intentional. Wilders still have that bonus.

@ Unravel: Haven't gotten around to updating it. Action would be a full-round action. It's a very delicate process.

@ Multiclassing: From my interpretation, you're either one or the other - no multiclassing between the two.

@ Slowing: Again, copied from the WoT Book. I left it there for balance purposes as the Initiate in particular was pretty top heavy already. Yes, it's mechanically a bit 'huh?' but there you go. The Whole channelling thing doesn't lend itself well to channelling requirements really, or the setting for that matter, but since I'm doing it for my own campaign I'm happy just policing weird multiclassing myself instead.

As an aside, and this is strictly OOC knowledge, so don't look if you don't want a minor spoiler...

 

...aren't a result of being a Channeller but of using the Oath Rod. It also cuts your maximum lifespan in half (300 or so instead of 600+) as it was originally devised as a way of controlling/punishing Channelling criminals. This becomes common knowledge to Aes Sedai towards the end of the series, but isn't at this point in the series.

@ Learning Weaves: No, not at the start of the campaign, though you will have opportunity to learn from others. Channellers are already in a fairly dominant position in terms of power compared to non-Channellers, so I don't want to further compound it. As for being an Aes Sedai, again game play and story segregation for the sake of balance. To be honest, I had thought of ways to completely re-invent the magic system to something more organic to better represent how it works but I've already got three such systems on the go and haven't got the time/head space to screw with this one any more than I already have.

@ Instinctive Weaves: And in my mind those would be represented by their starting weaves or simply that they figured them out on their own or the like (like Sorcerers do in DnD).

~MTWC

[Blue]

@ Balefire: No problem. I'll change it. I hadn't picked to represent her looking for it or even knowing that it exists but rather as an innate 'readiness' to learn and channel it.

I'd personally suggest taking the overcoming Block feat if you just need to use one up

If I need to use one up? A feat? I needed to spend Extra Trait feat on some trait because the prerequisites demand two traits and the only way you can learn a new trait is with that feat.
Unlike typical caster prestige class the requirement isn't being able to safely cast spells of a given level or a minimum caster level. They require 4 feats.

The whole point of a block is that it's supposed to be a drawback, so I am going to be strict on the enforcement of it I should warn.

Sure. No problem. Mechanically it is kind of like Seizing the Source twice. Getting through the block requires getting in the right state of mind so if you're not doing that or seizing the source to avoid being seen by power-seeing people or drawing their attention it is going to take a moment to be ready to channel anyway.

@ Craft/Profession: Doesn't mean they did it right.

@ Unravel: Full-round action, so harder than inverting weaves. Alright. On a related matter, I've just spotted a very similar channeler option in the Concentration skill description in the book that is available to every channeler. Is it supposed to be the same thing?

@ Multiclassing:Ah? Aren't many initiates wilders before they become initiates?

@ Slowing: Balance purposes? Besides being interesting for story purposes how does it give any mechanical advantage?
I read about the spoiler while searching on Aes Sedai lore for my girl. In my given example it is ever worse: The Aes Sedai would live between 40-60 and die of old age.

@Learning Weaves: Fair enough. Not sure if channelers are that dominant considering they are much weaker than your typical caster and their casting flexibility does not even compare considering the small amount of weaves available. The casting mechanic is interesting though so testing it out is probably going to be pretty fun.

[Battlechaser]

So we meet again.

Hey Mak and Blue.

I've got a few questions:

- the power wrought weapons: what would the bonus be on the two longknives?
- the warder has a prereq of light armor proficiency, which does not seem to fit with the Aiel culture. Could gudarc us another prereq for that?
- I'm opting for the TWF-route, so nu buckler use for me.
- Since Gudarc is a linguistics buff, he actually knows most available languages. I included Trolloc if you don't mind.

[Makenshi]

@ Extra Trait: Ah, yes, although I think you mean Extra Talent. It's the same with all the channelling PrCs because they all require a certain amount of skill/breadth of knowledge which is represented by feats in this setting. Ysac is in the exact same boat.

@ Unravel: Yes, harder than Inverting. As for Concentration, that's what I get for not reading through Concentration, so thanks for pointing it out. I'm going to use my version instead of that one though.

@ Multiclassing: In my mind, it's all about how you start off. If you look at the stat blocks for example, Nynaeve and Egwene, two very powerful Wilders, do not multiclass into Initiate despite being trained by the Tower. That Initiates make explicit mention of organisations is because that is the only way to be an Initiate, whereas most Wilders start off outside of them, even if they are picked up afterwards.

@ Slowing: If someone is only taking 1 or 2 levels in it before becoming an Aes Sedai then something is wrong, so I'm happy with keeping it where it is.

@ Weaves: It's difficult to say, but from my research into the WoT, Channellers are still dominant due to the damage they can do and the lack of magic items to balance the scales (not to mention Overchannelling potentially allowing them to cast when they wouldn't be able to before or at higher levels than they should). Even if shifting it to PF might have helped a little with that, I'd still rather err on the side of caution.

@ Longknives: +1. Those who have a single weapon have +2.

@ Warder: That's fine, I'll let Guardc use the endurance of his Loping instead, with the Armour Training ability instead increasing Loping.

@ Trolloc: Ok, though only a shallow understanding. It's not like there's a speaker he can learn from or a book he can read up on the entire language (although a book or books on observations of the Trolloc language is certainly possible)

~MTWC

[Battlechaser]

Ok. Thanks. My sheet is finished then.

[Makenshi]

How is it that he has a deflection bonus to AC?

~MTWC

[Megiddo]

Working on my sheet, and I noticed you totally have the blademaster's hit die at a d19.

[Battlechaser]

Warders' cloak.

[Blue]

@ Extra Trait: Ugh, yes. Talent.

@ Unravel: That's unclear to me. You mean that only the Wise Ones can use it via Wise One Talent or that everyone can use your version of the unraveling via concentration(weavesight)? Or a mix of both, like Inverting (every channeler can do it with the skill but unless they are from a specific group they just don't know they can do it or are otherwise against using it)?

@ Multiclassing: Yeah, I suppose the distinction is the same one seanchan uses to separate damane and sul'dam: wilders can learn on their own but an initiate can learn to channel but do not do so on their own (unless maybe they find books or some-such to learn the process).

@ Slowing: What's wrong is that they can do it because the requirements do not require actual experience as a channeler, only feats, skill ranks and being able to channel at all. Your argument was balance purpose but, as I said, it is only a story thing and doesn't actually give them any power. The actual balance problem is being able to enter these prestige class with minimal level investment in a channeling base class (which, mind you, is actually a very good idea since most weaves are useful to an adventuring party at their lowest casting level)
Kin members and other White Tower Novices who ran away would still live super long merely because they can channel.
You want to follow the guidelines in the RPG book or follow the actual books?
Sorry if I sound contrary or otherwise difficult but when something sounds off to me I don't just let things as they are without speaking my mind.

@ Weaves: Perhaps. From my perspective the lack of magic item is countered by the lack of any real weave buffs. The ability to overchannel, similar to psionics, is countered by the weave's damage outputs and the fact that high level weaves aren't usually doing much to the usefulness of the effect past increasing the scales of how much it affects. Some almost replicate typical spells but with a higher casting level and sometimes with limitations such as being Rare/Lost (and there aren't many weaves to begin with). The weave whose damage output is similar to a spell's average damage spell is immolate (1d6/caster level, like the usual fireball) at Casting level 6 and it affects a single medium creature instead of an area effect. You can overchannel it but a wizard can do better with a level 3 spell, to say nothing of metamagic feats. A wizard can spend feats to empower his spells but a channeler has to spend feats merely to be able to channel normally. Unlike most spells, most spells have a concentration duration. Weaves don't come in round/minute/hour per level format.
You can keep one going with the tie off feat and can have more than a single one on concentration if you take multiweave feats.
However, spells are pretty darn strong to begin with so the point might be moot. I'll agree that it might be a good casting system as is despite the lack of material and being so feat hungry (which usually leads to little variation between one channeler's feat selection and the another's) but the notion that it might be remotely as good as arcane casting amuses me.


Oh, something I had forgotten to mention. The Heal weave as is doesn't make any sense. The casting time of the higher casting levels makes them completely useless.
You can heal way more than they can by channeling CL 0/1 Heals every round than you'd do at the end of the casting time.
ei:
Heal [0] heals 1 hit point and Heal [3] cast by a level 20 channeler heals a maximum of 44, but takes 10mins to cast (100rounds)
You can channel Heal [0] 100 times by the time you get to use Heal [3]. 100 vs 44 and you don't risk being interrupted by the time you get to the 100th round.

[Megiddo]

Healing in the books takes about half a second, unless it's something retardedly lethal, like poison that would kill anyone no matter what, or a knife in your heart. From what I've seen of the weaving rules, they're less what an Aes Sedai of any experience can do, and more what an Accepted would have to do to become an Aes Sedai in the first place.
Moiraine is fairly weak in the power, and she manages to nuke an entire fist of trollocs by herself in the first book, even if she is fairly tired afterward. I can see most Aes Sedai being crappy at combat around Eye of the World, but by the Path of Daggers they've fought trollocs, rebels, Seanchan... Aes Sedai are boning up on the art of war again.

I will admit that I will be very confused OOC, and my PC will likely be disdainful IC, if there isn't some resemblance to the power level that Aes Sedai canonically have- granted, I'm not one hundred percent sure what this should actually be mechanics wise as I don't have the RPG books, but it's certainly interesting to read all the stuff you guys have posted. I know in the books half the reason the Oaths existed was because Robert Jordan needed a way to ensure these women with rediculous amounts of power weren't going to be hunted down and killed, because they -can- destroy entire cities if they annoy them. The blight is pretty much the one place an Aes Sedai should shine beyond any mortal, because she doesn't need to wait to blast shadowspawn. Any other time she can only channel on behalf of others.


Anyway, I think I'm done with my sheet.

[Makenshi]

@ Unravel: Wise Ones only, at least for this play through set during this time. The Aiel are the only channellers seen using it in the books, with the Aes Sedai practically having heart attacks when they do because of how reckless they believe it is (which it is, since it can potentially Still you, which is a fate worse than death in their eyes).

@ Slowing: I really don't understand why you're arguing this. It's a moot point for your character and all the other Channellers and even if one of the three male PCs decided to become channellers mid-way through the game (unlikely) the time scale of the campaign won't show it. As I've said, these rules are a very basic conversion to save time.

@ Weaves: When making a conversion to this game I reached the stage that I wanted to re-work it even further, but not only would that take a lot of time/effort as stated before, but I wanted to at least check out how the WoT book itself stacked up for the most part, in particular its channelling. This is why the changes I intend to make to Channelling in particular will be minimal.

@ Heal: Good point, that's a result of 0 level being unlimited*. I'll put the following House rule for it then: 0-1st level is a standard action, 2nd-5th is a full-round action and 6th+ takes 1 round (not to be confused with a full-round action). Also (and this applies to similar weaves that do consistent scaling damage/effects) in the case of Overchannelling, items or Circles, I'm fine with people breaking the normal level 8 limit.

* - Incidentally, as far as I'm aware there isn't really a mechanical rule that represents the addictive nature of the One Power, but I do intend to enforce it if people walk around embracing/seizing the source for too long, so while it is mechanically possible to heal people for hours and hours with the 0 level version, I wouldn't recommend it.

@ Channelling and balance: As stated above, I won't be doing a radical overhaul of the Channelling system, especially after having accepted applications as it could majorly alter the balance of power, however I will point out that while the Three Oathes helps it only hinders Aes Sedai and, as you say, with a campaign against the Shadow it is no limitation at all. If we were being really realistic to the books, then almost any non-Channeller would be at a severe disadvantage compared to a Channeller, and the latter would completely dominate fights.

For those of you without access to the book, the best example of the difference in WoT and in DnD are in the offensive weaves:

• Immolate is a single target medium range weave that deals 1d6 fire dmg/channeller level, but must be cast at 6th level to be able to target a medium creature or 7th for a large.
• Lightning does 5d10 dmg to a single target and 1d10 to those within 10ft at 5th level. The secondary damage/range increases when cast at 7th and 9th level.
• Fireball starts at 2nd level, with a 5ft radius and 2d6+level dmg. Dmg increases by +1d6 per spell level and the radius increases to 10ft, 20ft, 35ft and 50ft in the listed levels in the book.

To be honest, I would attribute the imbalance to the nature of DnD's hp growth and the like, which doesn't really gel with how things are portrayed in the book (even a Forsaken, if caught off-guard, could potentially be killed with relatively little power). I would probably use S6 or the like as a basis for a WoT game if I had the time to re-work everything from the ground up, but I don't.

~MTWC

[Blue]

@ Slowing: I'm not bringing it up because it affects us in any way. I know it doesn't. If you plan to use this system later, though, it might come up. As I said, I'm only bringing it up because I usually point out things I feel do not work right. If the reason you keep it as is is to save time, so be it.

@Channeling addiction: The book states that addiction can be really problematic for males because of the madness but it doesn't change anything for females. One thing that I see that could cause them problem though is that, since you cannot rest while seizing the Source, addicts would have trouble sleeping. Maybe a composure check could be used to force oneself to sleep, though.

@Three Oaths: I don't remember us discussing the 3 oaths.

@Weave damage: Agreed. Some weaves have terrible damage but it seems to make sense considering that channeling rules states that channeling a weave that require 1 action can be channeled with an attack action. That'd seem to indicate that whenever you can make an attack action, you can channel a weave with a 1 action casting time instead (the same way a trip, grapple or disarm attempt can be done with an attack action).

I think I'm done with my sheet and ready to go. Still gotta figure equipment though. If the only equipment allowed is the equipment listed in the WoT book then I suspect a channeler begins a campaign with the same equipment no matter its starting level. Maybe that opens the opportunity to invest in things characters can't afford to buy for need of magic items, like a business, real estate, trained pets (rakens, anyone?) and so on.
There are Blue Ajah secret weaves I'm interested in though. The Suggestion-like weave that can plant an idea/impulse/great fear into someone's mind and the one that repels/controls insects.
Since they have no weave blocks I can take a try at making them using similar spells-like effects as a basis if you'd prefer not to do it.

@Battlechaser: You forgot the campaign bonus to AC. You get +6 to AC for having a BAB of 12. Did you include your skill points for being human?