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  #16  
Old Aug 13th, 2016, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by dirkoth View Post
One armed archer
And THIS guy would disagree with you.

Last edited by Squeak; Aug 13th, 2016 at 03:26 PM.
  #17  
Old Aug 13th, 2016, 04:49 PM
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I would contend he is the very definition of suboptimal.

Two bronze medals and a gold, in the paraolympics.

Optimal would have been 3 gold.
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  #18  
Old Aug 14th, 2016, 12:26 AM
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I'm going to agree and disagree at the same time, by saying it depends. It depends on the game you are playing and the playstyle of the players and GM. It also depends on generation method - when rolling 6x4d6, no one has any cause to complain about stats vs using point buy or static set methods.

The definition of optimal depends on the game you are playing. Optimized for what may be a better question. Optimized for combat is the common assumption in most d20 games (3.5-5e and Pathfinder). In other games it is possible to optimize for roleplay, skills or other character aspects. In this case, since you did mention 5e, consider where the rewards are going to be coming from - if your gm runs a game in the standard way, it's going to mostly be combat. If the split is less about combat and more about story milestones, then that is something to be considered as well. 5e offers Inspiration for roleplay, but it's a fairly minor reward overall. without knowing the playstyle it's difficult to give a useful recommendation.
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  #19  
Old Nov 20th, 2016, 12:37 AM
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When I hear people say optimal, what I think most people mean is COMBAT optimized. Also of note, RPGs tend to be called RPGs, and not CPGs (Combat Playing Games). That being said, I find that most people want their characters to be good at something and that the difference between an "optimized" and "non-optimized" character is a max of +2 on 1d20 (and more likely a difference of +1). This means that 5% of the time it makes a difference. The other 95% percent of the time, you perform just as well in either case; the d20 roll has a larger impact on the outcome of a character than the extra +1 or +2 on a roll. If the dice hate you, doesn't matter what your bonuses are; If they love you, doesn't matter either. The dice gods are fickle, and being optimized (or not) won't matter to them. Beg for their mercy.
  #20  
Old Dec 20th, 2016, 02:48 AM
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A bit late in the conversation but...

I have run a lot of games in both PbP and tabletop and I have discovered that table toppers almost always optimize in their DnD characters. It's just what the rule set encourages. In PbP games I tend to see a fruit basket ton more of the roleplay centric characters. I'm not sure yet what the mix is on RPGX but there seems to be a majority of DnD games offered.

I'd just say that I'd +1 to what everyone has already stated; communicate with the GM and the players. There's nothing worse than spending an hour on a post to get your RP just right just so everyone else in the group says "I HACK, I SLASH AMD I SMASH!" As A GM I find character driven stories about romance, growth and frailty far more intriguing than how much damage you can squeeze out of your fists-of-fury.

So a monk that wants to spread the word sounds pretty cool. And it sounds like your preospective DM thinks so too.

Last edited by Karver; Dec 31st, 2016 at 12:33 AM.
  #21  
Old Dec 20th, 2016, 03:43 AM
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I have taken a long hiatus from the forum but assuming things aren't too different, this forum allows for suboptimal characters. Personally as a player, I never optimize but I try to at least be efficient in the role I am in the party. As long as I can impact in said role, I don't care if I suck at other other roles and activities. If the whole party is good, then I optimized more to stay relevant in the party; if the whole party is average, then I can chill more on optimization. I think this way is easier for the GM to adjust too, certainly easier than figuring out what to throw to say a party of 3 min-maxed characters and two crappy ones.

Last edited by Goliathus; Dec 20th, 2016 at 03:43 AM.
  #22  
Old Dec 27th, 2016, 12:08 PM
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My feeling is that if you want to min/max, then that's fine, but you're probably better off going and playing World of Warcraft. 'Pen & Paper' RPGs have always been about Role Playing for me...and I find roleplay so much more fulfilling if the characters are 'real', which almost always means they are 'suboptimal' in some sense. As long as your build isn't so handicapped as to be a drain on the rest of the party, there should be no problem. And even if you are a drain on the party, if you can roleplay your way through it, I wouldn't have a problem 'carrying' you; that's where a good DM should step in and adjust the difficulty of the campaign to fit the characters.
  #23  
Old Dec 31st, 2016, 07:34 PM
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I'm with D11 on that point, I don't have a problem with "unoptimized" characters in a party I'm with. I find that it's more often the guy playing the sub-optimal character who's wishing he could be more powerful, but usually only when the rest of the party is playing combat monsters. If you're comfortable with playing your character and trust your DM it's more a matter of taste.Take my advice with a grain of salt though, I've played quite a few characters that the other players around the table hated, optimized or not.
I've had more character deaths with "optimized" characters though. When your character's a total badass I find nobody feels the need to help as urgently when you're surrounded by a bunch of zombies, as when you play the party tank but eschew any starting weapons or armor in lieu of stocking up on healing potions and bandages. Guess which one the caster is more likely think can withstand being caught in a Fireball or Burning Hands?
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Last edited by Cereal Nommer; Mar 19th, 2017 at 02:20 PM.
  #24  
Old Mar 19th, 2017, 11:11 AM
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So I know this thread hasn't been posted in for a while, but it looks like it has been brought back to life before and I've noticed other necro'd threads, so I'll post my related question.

When talking about not wanting to min/max a character for OP reasons, how is this avoidable when players roll for stats and get to assign which result goes with which ability, or when buying stat points? Who would intentionally give a Fighter low Str or any other class a low stat in its main abilities?
  #25  
Old Mar 19th, 2017, 02:10 PM
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In 5e, you could have a Fighter with an 8 STR and get away with it.

DEX based. Duelist fighting style, Rapier is a finesse weapon, uses DEX mod for damage and attack. Encumbrance rules are generous, you can wear a chain shirt, get a back pack full of gear and some nice clothes and a spare short sword (also a finesse weapon) and go for it.

Now, would that be suboptimal, given the penchant for maxing out STR for fighters?
  #26  
Old Mar 19th, 2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaDeX105 View Post
When talking about not wanting to min/max a character for OP reasons, how is this avoidable when players roll for stats and get to assign which result goes with which ability, or when buying stat points? Who would intentionally give a Fighter low Str or any other class a low stat in its main abilities?
What's being discussed here isn't the purposeful creation of a mechanically inviable character, but instead one that prioritizes ease of characterization over mechanical optimization. You might still end up with nearly "mechanically optimal" characters sometimes if your first priority was building a character you could RP, but you will just as often end up playing a character who doesn't come anywhere close to to the maximum potential of the system.

A good example of this is, if you want to play a shaman-type character, the most mechanically optimal approach would probably be to roll up a Druid. That's fine, but what if you don't think some of the Druid powers really quite fit with the character you have in your head, and you think a Nature domain cleric would be a better fit? Or maybe the abilities that fit the character best can be gained from a high-Wisdom ranger? These would probably be regarded as less optimal mechanical choices, but since the priority is on the interesting and distinctive narrative character and making the rules fit that concept, the less optimal choice may be the better one.

Obviously, nobody can stop players from building mechanically optimal characters for their own sake, but most GMs have ways of punishing extreme or undesirable levels of min-max, both before and after a game starts.
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Last edited by Aeternis; Mar 19th, 2017 at 05:02 PM.
  #27  
Old Mar 20th, 2017, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaDeX105 View Post
So I know this thread hasn't been posted in for a while, but it looks like it has been brought back to life before and I've noticed other necro'd threads, so I'll post my related question.

When talking about not wanting to min/max a character for OP reasons, how is this avoidable when players roll for stats and get to assign which result goes with which ability, or when buying stat points? Who would intentionally give a Fighter low Str or any other class a low stat in its main abilities?
I would, to a point... It must be noted that it makes no real sense to make a wizard with 6 intelligence (mechanically unplayable), or a fighter with an 8 for strength (practically unplayable), when his other attributes are 16 or higher. However, I have chosen many times to play with less than optimal abilities: I have chosen to play a druid without wildshape, I have played a wizard with intentionally poor spell selection, I have played a fighter that used daggers only (surely, a suboptimal weapon, even with some feat trees). It all depends on the idea I have for the PC.

I will agree with you that it makes zero sense to play a cleric with a wisdom below 10... why bother? You are just an orator for your god, without spells. You could play a bard with no charisma, either, but... it begs the question, why choose to be a bard without the powers of a bard? Why play a wizard that can't cast spells?
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  #28  
Old Mar 20th, 2017, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaDeX105 View Post
When talking about not wanting to min/max a character for OP reasons, how is this avoidable when players roll for stats and get to assign which result goes with which ability, or when buying stat points? Who would intentionally give a Fighter low Str or any other class a low stat in its main abilities?
You really can't truly avoid min-maxing. It's the player's choice.

If s/he wants to play a frail but speedy Fighter (min Strength, max Dexterity), I don't see why I, as the DM, would disallow that. It's a sacrifice that the player must live with, especially when I need everybody to make Strength (Athletics) checks to jump from rooftop to rooftop. Or, when s/he needs to crawl out from under a wall that has collapsed on top of him/her (although s/he might have had a good chance to duck out of the way in the first place, but hey, Nat 1's!). ^__^
  #29  
Old Apr 27th, 2017, 01:39 PM
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In my one campaign with D&D 3.5, I tried to role-play along these lines. My character was a big hulk who made a living in the city as muscle for hire. Often a bone-bender/collector for loan sharks and the like. Circumstances were devised as to why Bull went forth on the Glory Road, away from his beloved city and into the miserable rustic world. I decided nothing in this guy's mindset or personality suited wearing "Knight of the Round Table" plate armour. A preposterous mental image.

This caused confusion around the table. D&D is apparently built on the axiom that a fighter climbs levels and wealth until he is wearing a full suit of steel. The fact I stopped with chainmail-ish stuff was baffling to them. The GM, usually pretty good in other games, became rather rigid in this thinking.

"Isn't there any magic chainmail or other such treasures you could have for me?"
He looked in the Official Rules of Stuff..."Nope."

So, we received standard D&D piles of loot that provided new toys for the other characters, and Officially for the Fighter, weapons and armour that might have made Sir Lancelot giggle with happiness, but were of no interest to me.

It does depend on the game and the GM, but more precisely than I reckoned on.
  #30  
Old Apr 27th, 2017, 07:53 PM
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@morogh....way back in the Ad&D days, I have a PC that earned a +1 longsword. He felt it was a gift from his deity, and he was very attached to making sure he was in good graces with his deity....So, he would never, ever part with that sword.

No matter how many times something better came up, he would shake his head, and keep his simple +1 longsword, because that was the first sword his deity ever gifted him with.

I think quirks like that (and your armor story) really make PC's better.
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