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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 12:46 PM
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Balancing Geastalt games?

So, a gestalt game just ended its player selection. I asked people why they chose to apply to that game as they're were a LOT of apps compared to the other pathfinder games. Unfortunately nothing pushed the needle towards X being the reason they applied. The DM, the players applying, the module or it being gestalt were the main reasons. Thought for sure it would be the gestalt part of the game that swayed people.

Anyways... To my point/question:

Pathfinder, because of the many classes/subtypes/feats/races can be difficult to balance combat wise. Lots of OP builds that just screw with game balance (summoning focused characters I am looking right at you). You would think that a gestalt Pathfinfer game would be exponentially harder to balance. So, is there a way to do a gestalt game where it is semi balanced?

--In the game I mentioned above Battlechaser limited what combos you can do by power tier. That was a pretty good idea.

--What about using gestalt but reducing the amount of players to like 4 or even 3

--Using 6E rules so everyone. Is a 6/6 player and then just adds feats when they level?

--Maybe allow the second part of the gestalt to level slower...like 1/2 the main? In this I was thinking it would give you other powers and options but your would still be mainly the first class. Sort of like having a minor in college.

Thoughts?
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 01:42 PM
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Battlechaser's a quality writer, DM, and long time site veteran. BC being the DM is a much bigger selling point for a game than gestalt build opportunity is.

With that said, suppose the adventure as initially written is a really challenging one. Total party killer potential from the get go. The gestalt option could be simply an allowance for character survival.

As for reducing the number of players, most games on site wind up losing a player or two after the first month or two. That's just how it goes, real life is tougher to tend to than fantasyland monsters. The best games on site can see player dropoff due to illnesses, schoolwork or job overloads. If a game starts now with 6 players, having the party size down to 4, like you were suggesting, is entirely possible by the summer.

Last edited by zevonian; Feb 8th, 2016 at 01:43 PM. Reason: type oh
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 01:55 PM
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Ahhhh, player drop-out. That's a good point. That would reduce it down pretty quick. Interestingly enough if you allowed gestalt builds then you would not be so worried about losing a key component of the game. Like when the cleric/oracle disappears then you are in trouble healing wise. Same if your front line meat shield leaves. You have more of the bases covered so to speak.

What about a solo game? It seems something like gestalt would work really well. Though they would be powerful...they would NEED to be to survive.

I asked about reasons people joined that game because I want to run a game in the Midnight campaign setting in the near future. Apart from being a very dark, grim world the players normally are given additional powers through bloodlines. These bloodlines are really powerful to the point you could consider them partial gestalt builds. Might be easier to ignore the bloodlines in favor of the gestalt builds.
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 02:03 PM
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Hey,

The tier limit for the gestalt classes I borrowed (with permission) from LeoByron.

As for the balance part: in my experience on this site I'd have to say that most players on RPGX choose to play a character and not a combination of classes. So don't be worried about power creep or an arms race.

Greetz

BC
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 02:44 PM
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BC,

By the way....you know I was not saying anything bad about you or your game right (that is was just because it was gestalt)? I actually thought about applying but really did not think I had much of a chance for your game given the amount of apps and who applied. I also did not mean to pimp off your game ad either but I REALLY wanted to know why your game was so popular. (Looks like its you I wanted to make sure that when I did eventually get to running my game that I had the right kind of bait so to speak.
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 03:02 PM
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I think you balance a gestalt game the same as you balance a regular one: based on the encounter the PC's are in at that time.

Gestalt offers a wider range of powers in a smaller set of people, but, in general, there's still only a few actions you can take in a round. Just like Theurges are powerful, but not incredibly more powerful than non-theurges, because you can only cast so many spells in a round. A standard action is a standard action, no matter how many of them you have to choose from in a build.

All of the ideas you mention are credible ways to balance ANY game: Tier restrictions (I have a game now, with no Tiers 1's allowed), E6 (playing in one of those as an E6 Gestalt), limits to powers/multiclassing/builds.... they all work in a normal game or gestalt.

As a DM, i think gestalt is harder to manage, because one tends to forget that you are playing gestalt, when all your monsters and villians are stated as normal. However, that's easy to fix on the fly, just add a class or so to everything, and have fun.
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 03:03 PM
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I know, no worries.

And to be truthfull: I did not expect such an outcome myself.
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 03:43 PM
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@Dirkoth: Is that 6E gestalt game open to viewing by the general public? Are lurkers allowed?
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 05:03 PM
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What sort of solo game would you be referring to in terms of a gestalt build?

New Player Solo Games, as per this site, are tutorial games for folks to learn the basics. Asking someone to handle one pc with a single class is more than enough.

If you have a specific gestalt character in mind that you want to play in a solo game, there's always the Players Seeking Games area in which you can post your game desires and see if you get any takers.
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 05:29 PM
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@Zevonian: As for solo game I was referring to my planned Midnight game. I wanted to have two players with some information before the...err... gathering. So it would not be a solo game but a very short precursor to the group game.
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 08:06 PM
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@PF: looks like it's open to lurkers.

https://www.rpgcrossing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10709
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 08:09 PM
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Hell yes! Thanks!!!!
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 08:40 PM
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I think you're chasing a goal which can never be achieved. PF/3.5e can't be "balanced" before gestalt - I see no reason why it's possible when you throw in parallel progressions. My usual go-to to cut down on complexity in gestalt is to forbid prestige classes and to limit multiclassing on one or both progressions. Nevertheless:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PassionFruit View Post
--In the game I mentioned above Battlechaser limited what combos you can do by power tier. That was a pretty good idea.
I once designed a gestalt game (really two games in the same world) with a similar rule, but I got there mostly out of story and lore reasons - people with powerful magic talents (like Wizard/Cleric gestalts) were rare and had better things to do than go adventuring. The characters ended up still being pretty powerful, but I also was planning to throw them out of a burning airship a mile above the ground pretty quickly, so they needed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PassionFruit View Post
--What about using gestalt but reducing the amount of players to like 4 or even 3
Or just increase the challenge by a couple of CRs. CR is a guideline, not a rule, and I find it a guideline usually best ignored. Don't pick a party composition based on what CRs your planned encounters are - shape and tweak the encounters to fit the party.

If you want to run a gestalt game, you should get used to the idea of possibly throwing up-CR encounters at the party once in a while. Strong gestalt characters with a full compliment of magic items can often take care of those - especially if that encounter is one big monster instead of several equal threats, or if the characters can choose the terms of the engagement. A party of five level 9 Gestalt characters can often (but not always) easily take on CR 13-14 single-foe encounters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PassionFruit View Post
--Using 6E rules so everyone. Is a 6/6 player and then just adds feats when they level?
E6 Gestalt can still be fairly powerful, but it's a sensible choice - I find E6 to be at its most attractive if the PCs' foes are usually people - kobolds, orcish war-bands, soldiers of the evil imperium, bandits, cultists, etc. If the PCs are usually fighting dragons, demons, or other super-powerful creatures, I feel like full progression characters make more sense, so the characters have hope of learning to combat those beasts on equal(ish) terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PassionFruit View Post
--Maybe allow the second part of the gestalt to level slower...like 1/2 the main? In this I was thinking it would give you other powers and options but your would still be mainly the first class. Sort of like having a minor in college.
1 1/2 progression sounds interesting - characters having a "major" and "minor" strength is something I recall from the old MMO "Guild Wars", and it was quite effective there. It would be no less easily abused, of course, but it would also lend itself well to well-rounded characters, which is in my view the whole point of Gestalt - it lets characters shore up their worst weaknesses and deepen their toolboxes.

You could always define one of the progressions as a "secondary" class even in full, standard gestalt - establishing that the character is defined by the first progression, and influenced by the second, even if both have the same number of class levels. That would help channel prospective players a bit when it comes to concepts, and might cut down a bit on the powergaming if the character has to be presented in terms of what defines them and what influences them rather than what provides the plusses needed to take the prestige class at level 5.
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 10:13 PM
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Wow...nice analysis.

I guess it's not a powerful build I fear but a broken one. One that specifically is designed to work its way around a pillar of the game mechanics (allowing player more actions per turn, making it so a spell basically has no save or a rediculoualy high one). Then again...if I have the right players nobody will care if I say "we need to change that because..." I just hate policing players because I know I hate it myself.

I have always loved 6E. A lot of the reasons are described in the wiki. The way I see it (for the most part and within reason) , spells after level 3 are just more powerful versions of lower spells. They have more effects, do more damage, instead of short teleport you shift planes of existance. Is the player really missing out on something? Can't most spells be done via ritual if you gather the right materials? The same goes for fighter types. When they have so any rages/day they don't conserve. It's why I normally give out a feat per level and then work with the player to have it give them what they want. I see it as specializing.

Ok, got off topic just a bit.

So in the Midnight Campaign setting players have heroic paths(not bloodlines like I called it). Here is an example:

 


As you can see they can be pretty powerful. Perhaps instead of gestalt I stick with this but work with the player to create one that best matches their character concept. It would be like their chance to customize how they are truly special. If they want to be a barbarian that though he rages and kills feels horrible about it (after the rage) so he heals (let's call it a healer's heroic path where he has innate healing powers). If you are a rogue who really is just an assassin by nature he could have an innate dimensional shift like one of the arcanist exploits are. With that maybe a few spell like abilities, ability to hide in plain sight (vanish spell) and know poison.

What would float your boat more as a player and a good role player? Gestalt or being able to help customize a bloodline that fists you(and your vision) to a tee?
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Old Feb 8th, 2016, 10:38 PM
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There have been a few Midnight games on site. If that's what you're running, then I would suggest sticking with the Heroic Paths, as you'll likely have applicants expecting them.

Last edited by zevonian; Feb 8th, 2016 at 10:38 PM.
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