#1
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Caught Between Pathfinder and 5e
But the issue is that as a DM, I have problems with both 5e and Pathfinder. 5e is really easy for new players to pick up, and has a really solid starting campaign, but lacks the depth of customization that PF has, while PF (for me) is a chore to run because of all the myriad complex rules and caveats - at high levels rounds of combat can drag on and on. And introducing new players to PF is futile if you want them to actually learn about why they have some numbers in boxes on a sheet of paper. In both cases I try to encourage players to make their characters rich in a RP flavor sense, but with new players, it can be difficult to get them really role playing their characters. I only have experience with Pathfinder/5e (outside of 3E-ish and 3.5E-ish in video games), so I guess my question is: Is there a system that sort of meets in the middle? A system that has enough options for customization (using character building rules, not RP), but isn't bogged down by them. Or perhaps some other solution? |
#2
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It depends on what you mean by customization. There are rules heavy games like Burning Wheel, in which there are myriad ways that a character can be made mechanically different in addition to having different motivations. There are games like Blade of the Iron Throne, in which characters are both mechanically and motivationally different, but which are not as rules intense as Burning Wheel or Pathfinder. Then there are games in which the characters may be mechanically similar, but vastly different motivation wise and play totally different from one another even if they are the same in numbers terms. An example of such a game is Fate Core.
I'd suggest taking a look at a few different games - 13th Age is similar to Pathfinder in some respects, Fiasco concentrates solely on roleplay, Burning Wheel is an alternate look at rules heavy games. Blade has a great combat system and can be a platform for intense roleplay as well. Fate Core concentrates on narrative tension. All are good games and all offer different approaches to what an RPG can be. There is also GURPS or BRP which are system heavy and not to my personal taste. You can find hundreds of different systems, many of them are reviewed at rpg.net.
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#3
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For example, in Pathfinder you can create the crazy Dragon Style Vivisectionist Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist (not that I'd particularly want to, but it's an extreme example), where in 5e my choices are far more limited.
On the flip side, sitting a new player down in front of the massive PF feat database and saying "here you go, pick three because you went human fighter" is extremely daunting (even ignoring the more complex rules. Looking at you, grapple flow chart.) I'll happily give guidance, but I also want the player to see his/her options; I've been playing Pathfinder for a few years now, but I certainly haven't read every feat description. In 5e I can say "see this class table? You get that stuff. Unless you want to multiclass, then you get that stuff, but there's also these few feats if you want", which is much easier to take in. Basically, I want to have my cake AND eat it. A quick look at 13th Age has my interest peaked, so I'll take a closer gander at it. Last edited by OfficerHalf; Jul 13th, 2016 at 11:59 PM. |
#4
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Not that I'd recommend it, but you could always go back to 2e, or AD&D, where your choices were more limited, but you still had a lot of options... It's kind of more option available than 5e, and less than 3.5.
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#5
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Complexity and simplicity are on the same scale, but at different ends. You cannot have both. Pathfinder/3.5 is on the complex end, 5E is on the simple end. Pathfinder is also older, and so has a lot more support going for it. As both player and DM, I prefer 5E, and this is coming from someone who started with 3.5.
Also, don't undervalue the power of roleplaying and creative license. In the 5E tabletop game I'm running, I have a newbie player who likes to draw. Being new, he doesn't know how to push the creative boundaries of the game, so I helped him along. I asked him how does his Cleric cast spells, whether he chants, prays, sings, whatever. He's new so he can't decide. I know he likes drawing and anime, so I made his Cleric go Full Metal Alchemist, and describe how he traces magical runes in the air and on targets he touches. He's a dexterous Cleric, so I let him slide between the enemies' legs with a Difficult Acrobatics check. No biggie. He loves it, and now at 6th level, he knows how to swing from a chandelier while singing a Healing Word, and then landing by stabbing his rapier into the enemy's neck (advantage on the attack roll, advantage on melee attacks against him as he regains his balance). All that is quite hard to do in Pathfinder. First, drawing runes as part of spellcasting must be specific to a particular class (probably called Runecaster or something). Then, there are feats that allow you to run between the enemy's legs, so you can't really improvise it anymore - it's either they have the feat to do it, or not. There's also probably a feat or mechanic to cover a leaping attack, so unless you have the feat, no jumping off chandeliers to stab enemies in the neck for you. What I'm getting at is that the simplicity of 5E's rules is actually a great boon for players and DMs alike. Sure, your character sheet won't look as cool, but on the table, they handle just as well as any Pathfinder character. |
#6
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Perhaps instead of fixing my problems through a change in rules, then a change in DM method. If you have a player that seems reluctant to roleplay and go beyond numbers on a page, how do you encourage them?
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#7
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You can really limit the amount of confusion simply by limiting the resources. Don't want your group to even consider a Dragon Style Vivisectionist Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist? No problem, just outlaw Ultimate Combat.
I am a pretty strident believer that just about anything concept can be done using the core rules only. If you don't min-max, it isn't a problem -- you can simply re-skin what is there to make the style you want. Quote:
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#8
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First you have to be clear to yourself what kind of roleplay you expect. Actor stance, director stance or something else. Once you kn0w then start rewarding that. I usually have at least half of xp in d20 game as roleplay rewards.
Last edited by roninkelt; Jul 15th, 2016 at 12:24 AM. |
#9
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by OfficerHalf; Jul 15th, 2016 at 12:36 AM. |
#10
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Quote:
To be able to do this, you as the DM would have to be paying real attention to how the characters are being roleplayed and how they are stats-wise. You don't have to know every nitty-gritty detail. I just make notes like "Strong. Likes to show off." and "Sneaky. Charming. Avoids melee." Example: Player: Um, I attack the goblin. DM: How would Conan make this attack? Player: Uh, with my greatsword, I guess? DM: Sure thing. You know, you've been playing Conan as boastful and something of a show-off. There is a crate right beside the goblin. If you would like to sort of jump off the crate, it'll be an easy Athletics or Acrobatics check. You make it, you get +2 to damage. You fail, you get disadvantage on the attack roll. Player: Yeah, I do that. I jump off the crate, and bring the greatsword down on his little head. You'll only need to be this expressive with the newbies for a while. They'll soon get the hang of it, and as they become veterans, their own creativity would inspire other newbies that join your group later. |
#11
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My opinion, posted several places now...
3.5/Pathfinder can be complicated if you expose yourself to all of it at once. Stick with the basics and it is an easy system. The 'complicated' that people mention are because of a large mass of material. The system itself is easy except grappling, and you can find flowcharts that make it easy too. In my (not so) humble opinion, 5e is good for new RPers because it is simple. For me, it is way too simple. If you are just jumping in for a dungeon crawl or creating a character for the first time it is fine, but it does allow me the detail that I want. -me
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#12
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As a new player, I might say that it depends who your group is... Yes you as the DM know what you want to do, but it does not help if you do not find players that do not want to play it that way.
I do not know 5th ed but I know 4th ed and already that was extremely simplistic. I like pathfinder personally as it gives the chance to create a meaningful in depth character. To a new player this might not help, especially learning a new system. When I learned to play DnD 3.5 I started with a simple fighter in mini scenarios. From there we explored the rules. Again... look at what the audience wants |
#13
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If we're talking a combination of encouraging good roleplaying and doing fun and complex mechanics, I would suggest Burning Wheel. Character creation is literally creating a backstory for your character. It provides motivation and encourages good roleplaying.
5th really is good if you are trying to introduce new people though. It bridges complexity with ease of use. |
#14
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IMO Burning Wheel is one of those games that work well in face to face games, but not so much in PbP. Too much negotiation and back and forth.
Love me some Burning Wheel, I've adapted at least 3 other settings to use Burning Wheel as the base, but just too communication intensive for it to work well with the communications lag inherent in PbP.
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#15
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I have played 3.5 and PF for many years. I have not played D&D 5e, but I have been DMing it for a while. 3.5/PF is a very complex monster with so many rules and books that at this point you need a small library to even come close to collecting all the options. I love a complex system... but as the system gets more and more complex, it leaves much less for freedom of choice as there are specifics that address those rules. For instance, I used to use the dirty trick as a combat option..... before it existed. Now it is much more restrictive and I hardly ever use it because if I don't have the right feats I am penalized. There is a fine balance between too simple and too complex, and right now I believe PF has gone too far in complexity. But that is just one man's humble opinion (I am currently in a PF campaign right now, so there is still love of the system, but for anyone just starting, it's a crazy elephant of a system and one bite at a time is too daunting for most.)
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