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  #31  
Old Oct 26th, 2016, 09:27 PM
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lol... way off topic!

I can agree to much of what you wrote... manipulation does tend to have the connotations you describe. However, as with many things, one can find information to fit a thesis almost everywhere...

I found this as a fairly common definition of manipulation: to control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.

And, certainly, two of the three "styles" used in this definition fit your view/definitions perfectly... unfair, unscrupulous.

But, 33% mark manipulation as merely being clever...



But, back to the OP: If your DM says it's evil, then it's evil. We can argue if your DM is "right", but the bottom line is... rule 0.
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  #32  
Old Oct 28th, 2016, 02:31 PM
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So then, if the Paladin uses these enchantment spells to make a bad guy rethink his life, or to bring random homeless NPCs to the church or to spread the gospel, or just to convert people, or on a lesser scale just enchant them to visit a priest of his god and see what its about, that's evil?

Perhaps it's "evil" to some, but I don't think the God of the Paladin would find it evil or want to strip his power from him for being the most effective member of his congregation.
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  #33  
Old Oct 28th, 2016, 06:45 PM
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I think it would make for a great, powerful story arc... the paladin using said spells to do "good" things, and then slowly, gaining more power, and perhaps, doing a bit more "good" with his spells, regardless of the wishes of the people he is doing good to... Until he realizes that with great power, comes great responsibility...


Just slowly entering the water, dipping a toe in, then a foot, and then the ankle, then... until at some point, he must wonder "am I still 'testing the waters' or am i swimming?"
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  #34  
Old Oct 29th, 2016, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osellic View Post
So then, if the Paladin uses these enchantment spells to make a bad guy rethink his life, or to bring random homeless NPCs to the church or to spread the gospel, or just to convert people, or on a lesser scale just enchant them to visit a priest of his god and see what its about, that's evil?

Perhaps it's "evil" to some, but I don't think the God of the Paladin would find it evil or want to strip his power from him for being the most effective member of his congregation.
In the Dresden universe, it would be the very definition of evil. Doing violence to another's mind and free will. They would show resistance in all kinds of subtle ways, as the spell wrenched their actions into unnatural courses against their deepest beliefs. Eventually the NPC so effected would fall apart psychologically and be a wreck, a shell of their former selves. The practitioner who did it would be labeled a warlock and subject to judgement and execution by the White Council Wardens.

In most D&D campaigns, not so much. But then most D&D campaigns don't worry or only pay lip service to morality.
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  #35  
Old Oct 29th, 2016, 10:58 AM
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The paladin should use guilt, just like Mother's have done for millennia, to effect the same changes.
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  #36  
Old Feb 4th, 2017, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirkoth View Post
The paladin should use guilt, just like Mother's have done for millennia, to effect the same changes.
.....Which is a whole OTHER form of evil...... LOL

Last edited by MtnRen; Feb 4th, 2017 at 05:35 PM.
  #37  
Old Feb 20th, 2017, 05:24 PM
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I never thought of them as evil. But this thread brought up a few good points. I don't think a paladin using enchantments to obtain follows is a pure LG act.
  #38  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 11:54 AM
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Just to toss my wee little hat into this very interesting ring. LG = the law is ABOVE all else and MUST be for the good of all. Individualistic morals (NG and CG) are moot and unless it is clearly stated in some golden list of sins to avoid then Enchantments are valid.

And as many others have stated, Enchantments are means to an end. Unless you charm or willfully coerce said victim to acts against the Law and Common good
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  #39  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 01:34 PM
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Enchantment spells by definition are coercive or you wouldn't need to use them on the victim. If free will is an important aspect of your game, there is definitely an argument to be made that they are evil.

[rant]On another subject related to this one - this is just another reason I don't like the alignment system. It's an artificial box that assumes there are absolute right, wrong, law chaos and other moralities. Most folks don't fall into an easily defined box, and those that do are often driven by a code that falls across such artificially drawn lines. Someone who is doing good by their standards and goals may be viewed as absolutely evil by someone who believes conflicting standards and goals. Classic D&D scenarios are full of such situations with no consideration of the opposite viewpoint.[/rant]
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  #40  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 01:54 PM
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This whole line of questioning is a bit confusing to me. D&D ethics are far different than real world ethics.

In D&D, the uber-good Paladin kills things. So if killing isn't inherently evil, how can enchantments be inherently evil?
  #41  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 02:40 PM
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Depending on the situation, killing is not evil. A soldier in war for his country fighting an invader is not evil. A woman fending off a rapist and killing him is not evil.

In the same token is enchantment spells evil. Depends.

Was obi wan evil when he pulled "these are not the droids you are looking for" or luke "take me to see jabba" both would be considered a cantrip level enchanting spell.

I also agree, the dnd 9 alignment system is not perfect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeak View Post
This whole line of questioning is a bit confusing to me. D&D ethics are far different than real world ethics.

In D&D, the uber-good Paladin kills things. So if killing isn't inherently evil, how can enchantments be inherently evil?
  #42  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 06:04 PM
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Hearkening back to the OP. "Are enchantment spells evil?" It depends on your campaign and only the GM and players can decide.
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  #43  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 07:41 PM
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Killing and forcibly manipulating thoughts are inherently evil. The situations or circumstances may mitigate them, but do not make them entirely not evil.

How these concepts are handled by the DM can vary with the DM. I personally take them in degrees, not all at once. A murder-hobo Paladin gradually builds up black points for unnecessary violence until his power is revoked - he can choose to knock creatures out, not kill them outright, after all. A mind-control Paladin, in the same vein, gradually builds up black points with each instance of mind control. In either case, I as DM will let the Paladin know in-game (e.g. a vision, a visit from an avatar, a vague sign, etc) of his status.

Some DMs are more lenient than I am, some more heavy-handed. Just the nature of the beast, I guess. ^__^
  #44  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peachyco View Post
Killing and forcibly manipulating thoughts are inherently evil. The situations or circumstances may mitigate them, but do not make them entirely not evil.
I must disagree (with my tongue only slightly planted in cheek):

In DnD, evil is clearly, and literally, defined by the word "evil" being attached to it. An evil spell is evil, because it is an evil spell. Circular logic/reasoning and all, but that's how the DnD world operates. Some things are GOOD, and some things are EVIL, and the world is pretty lucky, because a lot of GOOD things and EVIL things (not all, but some) are easy to spot with magic, etc., because they carry an aura or taint.

In the real world, killing is neither good nor evil. It just is... it's a part of nature. People kill to eat, they kill to live, they kill to get to and from work. Animals kill, nature kills, the universe kills. Your body kills, while you sleep, eat, even as you read this, your body is killing things.

As for "forcibly manipulating thoughts" being inherently evil... We might need to define a few words/parameters to make sure we are talking about the same things, but I would say I don't believe that as well. The fact that you can read the electrons on your screen, and understand the words and concepts I am writing about, indicates that at some point, your thoughts were forcibly manipulated into understanding that this series of lines is the letter "E", and that others indicate other letters, and that series of letters make words, and words are indicative of a concept. If I type the word SHEEP, and you think about a woolly mammal that provides wool, or baby lambs, etc., then you (very likely) have had your thoughts forcibly manipulated to understand that the word SHEEP indicates that animal. It's possible that as a child, you managed to comprehend the entirety of the language without being told "no", or rewarded or corrected for getting a word wrong, but it's highly improbable.



(just for argument's sake)
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  #45  
Old Feb 21st, 2017, 11:40 PM
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I don't think the discussion of Evil here directly relates to the Evil Descriptor. DMs I personally know don't wholly rely on the Evil Descriptor to determine if they'll take away the Paladin's power. They mostly rely on their real-world understanding of the concept of Evil. Just as Lightning Bolt has no Evil Descriptor, but when used to harm others, the action itself becomes evil, although it can be mitigated if the spell is cast in the defense of the weak. The same with Suggestion - the spell doesn't have the Evil Descriptor, but its use denotes the intention to modify another being's thoughts against its will, an action that is evil.

Good and Evil are artificial, high-level concepts, and you will never find it in nature. I think this is why Moorcock's Elric series only deals with Law and Chaos, which in science is referred to as Entropy (degree of chaos). Unless the animal is a Paladin or of a class that has alignment restrictions, it really doesn't matter to them. This is the reason that in my homebrew game system, I only have Law and Chaos, too.

Also, leading to believe and forcing to believe have a significant difference in Free Will or Choice. When I am being led to believe, I have the free will to not believe, either now or later - just as people don't have to believe my reasoning, now or ever. When I am forced into believing, I do not have the free will to not believe - just as you'd believe my reasoning without question if I used Suggestion or Dominate Person on you.

I can see your letter E, and interpret is as such because I had chosen to be taught to interpret it that way in the first place - there might have been some peer pressure or other external forces, but the choice was ultimately mine. I should be free to see your letter E and interpret it as a Metagross flying sideways. In this sense, you will find that Free Will factors into the situation at some point.

On the other hand, you can directly force my mind to interpret your letter E as such even though in my native script, your letter E is the symbol for the number 3. But you've forced my mind to interpret it as a letter - I have no choice but to accept your interpretation. In this sense, you will not find Free Will factoring anywhere.
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