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  #46  
Old Feb 22nd, 2017, 09:04 AM
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The logic presented in your first paragraph is that of "the spell is not evil, it is a spell. How it is USED determines if it is evil"... Just like a knife is not good or evil, until you use it to murder your sleeping nanny.

Even then, one could argue that the knife is still not evil, as it is non-sentient. YOU are evil.

And I would agree with that... Enchantment spells aren't evil, because A) they don't have the Evil descriptor (which in RAW terms, denotes if something is evil), B) don't have an Evil Aura (see RAW), C) is non-sentient, which is a pre-cursor for being "evil" in the real world and D) is a spell, and evilness is totally dependent upon its use.

If a Paladin used an enchantment spell to stop an Ogre from killing and eating a small child, did the Paladin commit an evil act?

Is the Paladin Evil for doing so? Is the spell evil, for changing the Ogre's mind?
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  #47  
Old Feb 22nd, 2017, 07:58 PM
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Lots of good discussion going on here.

To take things a step further, specifically in regard to a Paladin Enchanter, would a god ever revoke their power for creating more believers? Say the characters only objective was suggestion, dominate, and other such spells to get NPCs to visit the church, to get "baptized" or whatever version of that the particular faith had.

A lawful good god may feel that those who don't practice their faith are going against the law they have spelled out in their holy book. A neutral good god may be fine with it, though I suppose a chaotic good god may oppose the order and "rigid" behavior of the enchanted, but at the same time they also may be in favor of the possible chaos it stirs in the enchanted's mind.

As for neutral and evil gods, I don't think they would mind.
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  #48  
Old Feb 23rd, 2017, 06:12 AM
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I believe this would be on the Law vs. Chaos scale, and whether this would be in conflict with the paladin's vows would depend on which gods / ideals he worships. A good with the "Freedom" domain would probably be more opposed than a god with the "Bureaucracy" domain
It would only be evil if the paladin forces the subjected to commit an inherently evil act.
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  #49  
Old Feb 23rd, 2017, 07:46 AM
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I love these types of discussions. Let me just go ahead and throw my two cents and a wrench.

I am of a mind that it depends on how you use the spell.

Take the redeemed Paladin, whom at level 8 can cast pact of peace which is a more restrictive version of lesser geas an enchantment spell.

So that to me says, yes paladins can cast enchantment spells without evil descriptor and yes it matters what you tell them to do.
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Old Feb 23rd, 2017, 07:58 AM
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Also take note of the confess spell that two of the oath keepers archetypes can take. Also an enchantment compulsion spell, and one that can have severe repercussions by having to hang for some crime.
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  #51  
Old Mar 5th, 2017, 07:15 PM
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Good one

I've been wondering the same thing.
  #52  
Old Mar 18th, 2017, 08:43 PM
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I didn't look through all the posts but did anyone bring up the jedi and Mind Trick vs Force Dominate? Mind Trick doesn't really let the target know what it up; just weaves the altered action into their day-to-day routine. As opposed to Force Dominate that has the victim fully aware yet looking on helplessly out of their eyes, unable to stop themselves obeying the compulsion.

Its a fair divider there alongside intent. If you need to break into a villain's base it seems more benign to say you are mason hired to fix the dungeon's plumbing rather than murder your way in with an axe.
  #53  
Old Apr 19th, 2017, 06:46 PM
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I think perhaps one should consider the difference between Charms, which merely influence, and Compulsions, that force. Charm person might make someone like you better, but they still choose how they react to the circumstances. Which is the same reason why "manipulation" like being extra nice to someone isn't automatically evil. A guy can give a woman as many bouquets of flowers as he can afford, but she can still choose not to date him.
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  #54  
Old Apr 21st, 2017, 10:59 PM
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If you're DM's against it, you'll need a good justification for when you use it. Like say to not have to kill a villain in the hopes that showing him mercy will redeem him. Do what you think might be best.
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Old Aug 1st, 2017, 10:44 PM
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Spells aren't inherently good or evil, as it is the intent of the caster that makes something one or the other. Plus, the alignment system is more of a loose idea of what your character wants moreso than a strict code by which you must abide. Otherwise, there would only be 9 types of people in the world.
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Old Oct 13th, 2017, 08:06 PM
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Enchantment/Charm spells are coercive - if you fail the save, you have to behave however the spell dictates, having your free will robbed from you. While these can be used like Obi-Wan Kenobi's famous mind trick, it's very easy to do bad, crappy actions with them.

Alignment, in general, is a broken system when used out of an IC context. Instead of saying, "is that what a Lawful Good person would do?", ask yourself, "what would Bahamut think?" Most D&D style settings will have gods that represent what we think of as classical Alignments. Having ethical behavior linked to the attitudes of the IC gods neatly short circuits most circular Alignment arguements. What would Bahamut think of how you're using that charm spell?
  #57  
Old Oct 26th, 2017, 01:16 PM
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Are knives inherently evil. Spells are just a tool. What you do with the tool determines if it is evil or not.
  #58  
Old Oct 26th, 2017, 08:11 PM
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I would go back to my original assertion, in disagreement with a couple of the recent posters.

yes, spells can be evil. When they are, they have the evil descriptor attached to them. That's what makes them evil. Evil spells aren't determined by their use, their intention, their actions, or their results. They are good or evil or neither, based entirely on what the descriptor says they are.

as for a knife being evil... some are, in the DnD world, or at least, some weapons/blades. Again, if they have the evil descriptor to them, they are evil... whether they can kill or maim or cause evil just by existing doesn't matter.
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  #59  
Old Jan 20th, 2018, 10:50 PM
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I think it generally falls under the rubric of "it's a tool, and only as good or evil as the purpose for which it's used" ...but with a HEAVY caveat that being able to directly alter or control someone's mind is a very powerful tool, and that kind of power can be very corrupting. There are certainly ways in which that power can be used responsibly - getting vital information without resorting to torture, resolving dangerous situations without the need for violence, etc. - but it would take a great deal of willpower for one to restrict oneself to only using that power in moral ways. The temptation to use charms and compulsions to get one's way all the time would be constant, especially because it'd be very easy to convince yourself that you were doing it "for their own good," or that mind-controlling them obviated the need to achieve one's goals through violence and was therefore inherently righteous.

So, yeah... not inherently evil, but inherently morally tricky and requiring a great deal of care to avoid using them in an evil way.
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