Ask the Sage: Quick Rules Questions volume 6 - DnD 3.5 and Pathfinder)

[Sedracus]

We appreciate everyone helping others

You don't need to rest for eight hours, there's the Heward's Fortifying Bedroll in the complete mage which considerably reduces this time, although spells cast in the last eight hours still count against your limit.

[Asztirejan]

Sadly, a character can only benefit from the (awesome!) effects of the bedroll once every 48 hours.

I think gatherer818 put it well about as plainly and simply as you can get, which tends to be one of my problems. I like his solution, and that's probably what I'd do if I ever decided that it was an issue that I really needed to fix in a campaign.

It's hard to argue with that logic, at least.

[Teemu]

Originally Posted by Asztirejan

In my experience, it's pretty well agreed that a class like Mystic Theurge is powerful to the point of broken; losing the fluff class features is nothing in the overall scheme of dual spellcasting might.

Actually, Mystic Theurge is a much weaker option than going single classed because you're losing the higher level spells in exchange for more lower level spells. You're giving up the powerful stuff for more weaker stuff.

[Naresh]

I have to agree with Teemu here, unless you have a cheesy way of getting in early, mystic theurge is seen as very inferior

[jj_wolven]

Time to regain spells:
This is ususally not an issues and is assumed/skipped over in RP, except for the occasional brief interrupt.

Reading RAW, you would need to prepare each separately.
"spending 1 hour studying her spellbook" - they wouldn't be able to pray if concentrating on the spellbook, doing other things simultaneously would affect the memorization process.
"he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication" - they wouldn't be able to read if in contemplation/supplication, the diety would be insulted at the distraction and not grant them.

-me

[Asztirejan]

Yeah, I had a momentary lapse in memory and critical thinking. I started typing up something along the lines of "what are you guys talking about?" and then suddenly realized that what I was talking about made no sense anyway. I'm not sure where I got that from. All I can say is my brain must have been thinking of something else and crosswired that with Mystic Theurge.

Hey, it's been a while since I've thought about D&D!

[ArcaneLizard]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of praying and studying at once, just of magic from the "same side".
A Druid/Cleric, for example, should receive his powers from the same divinity, or two compatible ones (because otherwise one or both of them would revoke his powers), and thus be able to pray to both of them at once.
I had forgotten that Bards and Sorcerers do not prepare spells, though. That offsets the arcane side of the question.

At any rate now I have a much more important question: What's this about losing class features? The documentation I found only specifies that you have all the pros and cons of your classes, save for a barbarian's iliteracy if it's not your first class.
I understand that your familiar and paladin mount would be considerably weaker, but they shouldn't disappear. Why would they?


Also, the need for rest 8 hours would be offset by crafting yourself a Ring of Sustenance.

[Asztirejan]

Well, the whole "losing class features" thing was derived solely from my Mystic Theurge example and the discussion that it prompted.

A simple multiclass character does not lose access to anything (unless some sort of conflict occurs that has been specifically described to cause such a loss; for example, a paladin changing alignment).

In general, the only time you have to worry about your class features no longer advancing as normal is when you stop taking levels in the given class. This situation most often happens when you start taking levels of a PrC (prestige class) that continues advancing certain class features, but not others. For example, the majority of spellcaster PrCs offer advancing spellcasting ability, but not other class features that scale with level: familar power and bonus feats for a wizard; turning undead for a cleric; wildshape for a druid, etc.

Also, to be more precise, you don't actually lose these class features anyway--as you reasoned, they simply stop getting better.

So, in conclusion, a character who simply multiclasses in two of the base spellcasting classes continues advancing all class features of each class whenever each class is respectively levelled up--but due to the mechanics of spellcasting, the only way to really pull off a dual-spellcasting-classed character is to use a PrC such as Mystic Theurge. In such cases, your familiar and turn undead abilities (for example) stop improving.

[ArcaneLizard]

Nice, you had me worried for a moment there.
And as usual, this prompts a further doubt. It's not likely, but I'd rather be sure:

By the writting of your post, I derive that once you start taking levels in a prestige class, you cannot go back to the base classes. Is that correct?
If it isn't, I feel that Theurge is worth it, at least the first ten levels equal getting twenty levels on the other classes, thus saving you ten levels for something else/getting you there earlier. Epic theurges may not be worth it, since the gain of spellcasting levels is reduced to every two levels, though you may want some epic theurge feats. I do not know the lists, cannot tell.
If my deduction was accurate, however, this changes completely. It might still be worth it to go for those ten Theurge levels, but not until you have gained all your primary class features.

[Naresh]

You can go back to your base classes, or any other class, as long as you meet requirements for prestige classes and the class doesn't have other restrictions (paladin)

You just don't gain the benifits of the prestige class for that level:

e.g: Cleric 3 / Wizard 4 / MT 1
so that's casting as a cleric 4 and wizard 5
say I level up, if I choose MT I now cast as cleric 5 and wizard 6. but no other bonuses
say I choose wizard, now I am a lv 5 wizard so I get a bonus feat, cast as a lv 6 wizard but only a lv 4 cleric

[ArcaneLizard]

That's great to hear. I still say it's worth it, though:
Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Theurge 16 (total level 22) gets the first epic feat, while both Cleric and Wizard would get their first at level 23rd. Alright, maybe it's not quite that great of a deal, but it's nothing to scuff at, either.

At any rate, thanks for answering my endless torrent of questions. Despite its name, it is over for now.

[Asztirejan]

Exactly.

Basically, just look at taking levels in a PrC as no different from multiclassing into a base class; the only universal difference is that PrCs don't count for multiclass XP penalties. For example, a gnome wizard (Illusionist) who takes a level as a rogue, and then later takes a level as cleric, would suffer an xp penalty from multiclassing (the wizard levels don't count since they're his favored class). However, if the same gnome illusionist/rogue then took a level in the archmage PrC, there would be no xp penalty.

As a general rule, you neither lose access to class features nor are prevented from taking more levels in a previous class unless something specifically says so. For example, if you're a basic monk or paladin and multiclass into something else, you can't go back later and add more monk or paladin levels. As far as losing class features goes, monk and paladin both provide good examples: a monk loses access to his increased movement speed, Wisdom bonus to AC, and monk level-based AC bonus; and a paladin loses access to all class features if she violates her code of conduct.

[Naresh]

I keep thinking in terms of Pathfinder rules I think people with questions need to make this more explicit

XP penalties... does anybody actually use them? no-one I have ever gamed with have.

Don't forget the Druid too can loose abilities if they wear metal armour I believe

[ArcaneLizard]

Yes, but the Druid's abilities are only "suppressed" for as long as the contact continues, and come back when he drops the metallic armor and weapons.

[Asztirejan]

I dunno...I've always abided by the multiclass xp penalty, as it's a throwback to older versions and makes a lot of sense, in my opinion. It helps prevent exploitation, in general.

And yes, the druid is another perfect example of a class that can lose class featues if certain conditions are met.

Edit: Well, the same goes for the example I used of the monk wearing armor and losing his class features.

I think this has gotten a little too complicated--I was just giving examples for reference. The point is that you don't lose class features or the ability to "return" to previous classes unless something is specifically telling you otherwise; unless you're violating some prerequisite for the class features themselves.