Ask the Sage: Quick Rules Questions Vol. 5 (DnD 4e)

[Nocturnal]

Originally Posted by Teemu

Nope, low-light vision lets you see normally in dim light, which gives a -2 penalty to attack rolls to those who don't have enhanced sight. Darkvision lets you see in pitch black darkness, but I don't think any of the player races has it.

From the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, Drow have Darkvision, unless any errata has changed that. But I don't really see why they should, mechanically speaking, as it's a fairly powerful ability. Compare that normal and low-light vision have -5 to hit anything in total darkness, and there's a magic item that does nothing but give darkvision at level 14. Still, this is a player race that has natural darkvision. Monster Manual 2 has a PC option entry for Duergar (dark dwarves) who also have darkvision, but some of the monster manual races change a bit between publication there and as a full-fledged race.

[Teemu]

Yeah, I actually did remember later that drow do have darkvision.

[X-Codes]

Originally Posted by Nocturnal

From the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, Drow have Darkvision, unless any errata has changed that. But I don't really see why they should, mechanically speaking, as it's a fairly powerful ability. Compare that normal and low-light vision have -5 to hit anything in total darkness, and there's a magic item that does nothing but give darkvision at level 14. Still, this is a player race that has natural darkvision. Monster Manual 2 has a PC option entry for Duergar (dark dwarves) who also have darkvision, but some of the monster manual races change a bit between publication there and as a full-fledged race.

Darkvision sounds good, but it's tough to take advantage of it. It's rare that you're out in a wide-open, pitch-dark area where you can take advantage of being outside the radius of a light source yet inside of short range to avoid taking a -2 penalty anyway. What's more, even if you do get all these ducks lined up it's pretty much only ranged weapon users that can be effective at the kind of range we're talking about. Useful implement powers typically top out at a range of 10.

If you have some way to extinguish light sources (like an Assassin), then you can seriously take advantage of Darkvision. Until then, it's really situational, even though occasionally powerful.

[Sedracus]

The most powerful feature of the Drow is not darkvision - it's Cloud of Darkness.

Drow assassin? How.. appropriate

[X-Codes]

Originally Posted by Admin Sedracus

The most powerful feature of the Drow is not darkvision - it's Cloud of Darkness.

Drow assassin? How.. appropriate

I'd prefer a Shade Assassin that was a Drow in a previous life. Ability bonuses match up better, and Shades have some truly sick Assassin feats.

[sabrina9]

Originally Posted by X-Codes

I'd prefer a Shade Assassin that was a Drow in a previous life. Ability bonuses match up better, and Shades have some truly sick Assassin feats.

shades are sooo cool, I played one a long time ago... DM's doesn't let me to play them anymore

[GeoAvanti]

OK, so, I'm new to 4e, but I was talked into playing with some friends because they needed anothe rperson.

In making my character (a shockingly melee-capable Bard), I ran into some odd considerations, I figured this was one of the better places to ask.

In using the Harsh Songblade (PH2), it claims that the weapon can also fulfill the role of the Bard's implement (Double entendres aside...) I was wondering if the weapon's proficiency bonus also applies in situations where it is being used as an implement.

In this case, a longsword. So, when I use an ability that requires an implement, such as Vicious Mockery (PH2,69), is there any reason I ought not to also apply the weapon's proficiency bonus to the attack itself?

Granted, I find it a little... unbalanced if I can do that-- so I am assuming I cannot. I wanted to ask if there was anything in the RAW-- or merely implied through it-- that specifically pointed out what the case was.

I hope this isn't a silly question-- as I said, I am woefully unfamiliar with 4th.

[Skryptik]

The only RAW I know of on it is in Arcane Power with the feat Arcane Implement Proficiency. The songblade property in effect duplicates that feat in the sense that it allows you to use your blade of choice as an implement instead of having to carry around a wand as well. The actual text of the feat is something to the effect of not applying a proficiency bonus of a weapon that is being used as an implement.

It creates a mechanical duality. While making a weapon attack or using a weapon power, proficiency applies. While making an implement attack or using an implement power, proficiency doesn't work. In this vein, keep in mind that using it as an implement is subject to other intricacies like opportunity attacks in melee.

[Nocturnal]

Absolutely not. You never add a proficiency bonus to implement powers. For the reasons you guessed - they never attack AC and aren't meant to be super-accurate unless stated so with an attack bonus in the power. This is one of those things that was "so obvious" they didn't include it in either of the first two Player's Handbooks, but they fielded it in Customer Service questions right away and now, it is finally available in errata here: http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updates

For your convenience I've quoted the relevant passage below, even though it appears as the very first out of all the errata at the time of this writing:
"Player’s Handbook
New Updates
Accessories
Page 56: Add the following paragraphs at the end of the Accessories section. This change reflects revisions in Player’s Handbook 3. It clarifies how to use an implement as a weapon, or vice versa.

Using a Weapon as an Implement: If you’re able to use a weapon as an implement, the weapon works like a normal implement for you, but you use neither the weapon’s proficiency bonus nor its nonmagical weapon properties with your implement powers. When you use a magic version of the weapon as an implement, you can use the magic weapon’s enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, properties, and powers. However, some magic weapons have properties and powers that are worded in such a way that they work only with weapon attacks. Also, a weapon’s range and damage die are usually irrelevant to implement powers, since such powers have their own ranges and damage expressions."

Generally speaking that update file is a good go-to resource, since it answers a lot of the most common questions people may have with the game. Hope this helps!

Similarly, the example for an enchanted item given all throughout the first Player's Handbook, the Holy Avenger, had this property at publication: "Special: A holy avenger can be used as a holy symbol. It adds its enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls
and the extra damage granted by its property (if applicable) when used in this manner. You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using a holy avenger as an implement."

Furthermore, the same page of the book you got the Songblade item from has this to say about them:
"Using a Weapon as an Implement: Some classes can use certain magic weapons as implements. If you’re able to wield a magic weapon as an implement and use an implement power through it, you add the weapon’s enhancement bonus to the power’s attack rolls and damage rolls, but you do not use the weapon’s proficiency bonus. If you score a critical hit with the magic weapon when using it as an implement, you use the weapon’s critical hit effect."
That is the reason they stopped explicitly stating it in the item properties after Player's Handbook 2.

There's another thing... Arcane Implement Proficiency in the Arcane Power book allowed you to choose any one implement as an implement you can use in addition to the ones you already had. People used this to wield Longswords as implements, claiming they were Swordmage implements (which rendered obsolete a feat specific to Eladrin.) This is apparently a legitimate use of the feat, and it predates the above update, so the errata for this feat explicitly says the following:
"Arcane Implement Proficiency
Page 124: In the first sentence of the first paragraph of the Benefit line, remove “other than your own.” The former text was too limiting for multiclassing arcane characters.

Benefit: Choose a kind of implement associated with any arcane class. You can use that kind of implement with your arcane powers.
If that implement is also a weapon, you do not add the weapon’s proficiency bonus to attack rolls made while you wield it as an implement."

[GeoAvanti]

Thanks for the help, guys.

I'm glad to know that it happened to be so obvious that Wizards, in their unending wisdom did not choose to mention it.

[Nocturnal]

Yeah there are a lot of examples of that.

I think my favorite is that when you charge, you can exploit the geometry of 4e's space (pi=4) to take the shortest distance path (in squares) that routes around solid obstacles, though there may be several such equidistant paths between two points even without obstacles. So you can zigzag the entire way provided you use the fewest squares possible to reach your target, when you'd be going through the corners of all the squares. I've only begun learning metric and topological spaces so that should creep me out more later.

[Nof]

Hi,

In 4e you can retrain 1 power previously choosen per lvl gained, from what I understand? Can you retrain Feats as well one per lvl?

Thanks,

Nof

[X-Codes]

To beat a dead horse:

Originally Posted by GeoAvanti

In making my character (a shockingly melee-capable Bard), I ran into some odd considerations, I figured this was one of the better places to ask.

Bards are plenty melee capable in 3.5, but I digress.

Originally Posted by GeoAvanti

In using the Harsh Songblade (PH2), it claims that the weapon can also fulfill the role of the Bard's implement (Double entendres aside...) I was wondering if the weapon's proficiency bonus also applies in situations where it is being used as an implement.

Your answer is about 4 inches above the item's description in the PH2. Perfectly up to date rules there.

Originally Posted by Nof

In 4e you can retrain 1 power previously choosen per lvl gained, from what I understand? Can you retrain Feats as well one per lvl?

You can retrain one feat, power, or trained skill every level. The only requirement for retraining feats is that you don't lose a feat that is required for something else and that you don't gain a feat that you don't meet the requirements for.

[Nof]

Thanks X-codes for the quick response. Completely makes sesnse can't retrain a feat that is required for another feat or skill you have.

Just to clarify though you can only retrain either one skill, power, or feat per lvl and not one of each type per lvl?

Thanks a ton,

Nof

[X-Codes]

Originally Posted by Nof

Just to clarify though you can only retrain either one skill, power, or feat per lvl and not one of each type per lvl?

Right. You can change only one thing each level, and that thing has to be either a feat, skill, or power.