[D&D-5e] Dragonlance: The Shadow of the Dragon Queen

[HexCursed]

@Seekr34: So... are Kenders basically the super-annoying version of Halflings?

[Remorazz]

@Salvation start with a cliché, then put a hat on it!

@HexCursed I think in other editions they were also kleptomaniac on top of looking like children

[DraconigenaArma]

Originally Posted by HexCursed

@Seekr34: So... are Kenders basically the super-annoying version of Halflings?

Not really, that's an easy and superficial shortcut that doesn't really do them justice. Yeah, they're small and childlike in appearance, kind of touching on the carefree and wander loving traits. But the thing about Kender is that though they crank up the curiosity and impulsiveness character traits they are also notorious for their complete lack of fear, insatiable curiosity, and a unique sense of "borrowing" (hence the bad rap for kleptomania, it's a culture clash problem that isn't actually a big issue in Kender society.)

But being asked lots of questions like you get from a toddler is annoying, getting innocently robbed is annoying, having to keep a Kender from getting itself killed through naïveté is annoying - hence their reputation for being irritating and a handful. They don't really blend in like halflings do, they don't have the Hobbit like appetites or keen shot with a thrown stone, or the good sense to use subterfuge and avoid trouble. To say they're just a halfling's worst traits cranked to 11 is a caricature of what Kender are.

And this is a diatribe from someone who actually finds most of the book Kender characters kind of a burden on the story most of the time. But still, they're way more than just ditsy hobbits.

Ronan is chaotic neutral by the way.

[Seekr34]

LOL Kender is portrayed that at times, but not always. They did have a serious side to them. Kind of 50/50. A friend of mine who DMs a lot had one rule that will not be broken. That is no player can play a kender. Pretty funny, I asked her why, forgot what she said, basically, she hates the race. I think the race could hard to play for some, gotta mix in the humor, the seriousness.

[Mitsubachi]

Taela app is complete, and let's put her down as Chaotic Good.

[Arkanis]

I'll update the table over the weekend, in the meantime lets stick a closing date on this for Monday 11th November.

[FCastor]

Originally Posted by Arkanis

I'll update the table over the weekend, in the meantime lets stick a closing date on this for Monday 11th November.

Blame my very mild OCD tendencies, but I am updating that table. So, if you want to make your life just a wee bit easier, you can simply copy and paste by quoting my post just to grab what is written in it.

[Arkanis]

lol go for it

[HexCursed]

Originally Posted by Remorazz

@HexCursed I think in other editions they were also kleptomaniac on top of looking like children.

That could be an interesting set of traits... for a single person. But an entire species?

But then, I don't typically let players choose Chaotic Neutral either.

[DraconigenaArma]

Originally Posted by HexCursed

That could be an interesting set of traits... for a single person. But an entire species?

But then, I don't typically let player choose Chaotic Neutral either.

Easily, the hate on Kender is mostly the same reason people hate paladins and chaotic neutral: immaturity and player abuse of being able to throw up their hands and cry foul when confronted with negative consequences because "it's my what my character would do!"

It makes perfect sense to a race of creatures who fundamentally lack any sense of personal property (or understand it conceptually but do not have any personal understanding of why it's important. It depends on which author you're reading where the line is.) In a society where everyone respects personal property, the person who steals is causing friction in society. In a society where no one owns anything, they just make and use things, the person who hoards it is the one who is causing friction in society. It's a matter of perspective, and because it's a racial trait and not a sociological thing, it is difficult (not not impossible) to reason away. Kender don't steal from each other, because they don't own things, so you can't steal it. If it's not being used, it makes no sense to them that someone else shouldn't. And when they need something, a suitable thing is probably lying around to grab and use for that purpose. Win win. To them, anyway.

But Kender get a bad rap more from PCs abusing these tendencies at the table to be kleptos, and just causing all sort of strife for the party by actively antagonizing other PCs, and then shirking any hate for it "because I'm Kender." Same reason people hate chaotic neutral because too many lazy players use it as a shield when they run remorseless murder-hobos that get the PCs in trouble or intentionally offend the sensibilities of other PCs/players "because that's the way I am." See the tired trope of paladins being "lawful stupid" because they're used as a vessel to be an insufferable zealot just because they can. Puerile players who play Kender to get way with bad behavior like being willfully ignorant to the detriment of the story "for the lolz" is the largest contributor to hate of the race.

[Seekr34]

[Seekr34]

App is completely done now, finally came up with the 2 secrets.

[HexCursed]

Discussion on character abuses @DraconigenaArma: Thanks for sharing with me your thoughts and experiences regarding Kender. I don't really know much about them but now I know more. There's an old movie that my parents love where there's a primitive African tribe with the same sense of not owning anything, because nothing is terribly unique or worth owning. Rocks and sticks and such don't really have any value. Then something unique gets introduced into the village and it becomes a serious point of contention and conflict. That said... I find the concept of a more advanced society not recognizing personal property kind of a stretch. Though, your explanation makes some sense. It seems to me that a society like that, who doesn't grow attached to material things could actually be quite serious and spiritual. But I think all players, Kenders or otherwise, would get really aggravated when they go to get ready for battle and their extra-special weapon or arcane focus or something is gone. Anyway... Let's see. Oh, Chaotic Neutral. I played a DnD game with a guy who played a CN warlock who was essentially CE but was just calling it CN as a mask. He would make comments about claiming another soul for his lord and such. And yes, other players have used CN as "I can do whatever I want." Somehow that indemnifies them against restrictions. I think my biggest complaint about CN is that most people don't really seem to understand it. I ran (part of) a campaign based on the struggles and law vs. chaos, how both can be awful, etc. A character who is chaotic neutral IMO is an anarchist. They are anti-lawful and reject authority in any form. That's kind of why I don't like it. The CN character isn't going to want to work with law enforcement or anybody with a noble title. They're not going to "bring somebody to justice" because they don't believe in organized forms of justice, only what they believe. If they're viewpoint contradicts anybody else's (in the party), then I don't see them compromising. It just seems as extreme of a viewpoint as Paladins get blamed for. I knew a girl in RL that could best be described as chaotic neutral. Last I knew she was living on the streets because she couldn't hold down a job (couldn't put up with a boss telling her what to do) or live by anybody's rules. She couldn't even stay in a shelter for long because of all the "unnecessary and unfair" requirements. Maybe any alignment can be taken too far. I just find a few to be more prone to being problematic than others.

[DraconigenaArma]

 

The Gods Must Be Crazy, that's the movie with the coke bottle falling from the sky. I remember it, but not much about it. I think you're right that a Kender society coming about is highly unlikely, which is why they're a novel's thought experiment I suppose.

Though I disagree with your characterization of chaotic neutral. Every alignment can be run to some intolerable degree, or as (as I've mentioned) extreme caricatures. I am hesitant to use real people as reference for things like this, that woman likely has mental health issues which are not really well represented by the two-axis alignment system. I think it's also fairly obvious, like horoscope, most people are more complicated than that and don't really fit neatly into the alignment scales. However, fictional characters are fair game. I regard Han Solo, Deadpool, and Jack Sparrow as chaotic neutral. Think characters who are chaotic in that they are not adherents to rules except when they serve them, but are in no way anti-lawful and are surprisingly consistent in that they have a way they do things and follow those principles. Characters that often do the right thing, if for their own reasons, and are capable of associating with a group. There are lines they cross that a truly good person couldn't or wouldn't, but never out of malice or pleasure or just wantonness. Even the "crazy" example, Deadpool, is more personality (wacky antics, irreverent humor) than alignment. I think I agree any anarchist is of chaotic alignment, but I can't follow that all chaotics are anarchists.

If all goes well we'll both get in and I can change your mind on CN!

[Salvation]

Kellis should be finished up.