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  #91  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 10:38 AM
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I am a cis-het male, I'm white, I grew up in a middle-class household in an affluent western country. I have always been aware of the many privileges that I have, but I generally didn't consider them too important, because of course we live in a time of unprecedented wealth and equality, and things are generally going in the right direction towards more tolerance and freedom. Or, at least, that was how I felt.

Recently things have seemed to be backsliding. In many different areas hard-won freedoms have been getting eroded, and of course it is always people in some kind of minority who bear the brunt of this. Why should I care? It doesn't directly affect me, I have already said that I am a member of the most privileged demographic there is. The fact is, as a human being, I just don't understand how I could not care. We have evolved to be empathetic, it is probably the most crucial strength our species possesses. So much so that there have been hundreds of methods developed over the millennia to subvert or bypass the empathetic urge for the benefit of some small subset of the population. These days we might call these processes "culture wars", "tribalism", "nationalism", or many other names, but they essentially all boil down to the same thing; marginalise, ostracise and demonise your chosen "undesirables". By removing the voices of these "others" you allow your own narrative of who they are to go unchallenged, which allows you to paint them as less-than-human, so that your pesky empathy won't get in the way when you treat them like objects, or worse.

What I am saying is that I fully support any effort to make the voices of any oppressed people more widely heard. We all have a duty to fight against our own biases, to try to see things from the other person's perspective, even if (I'd go so far to say 'especially if') that makes us uncomfortable. If, as has been suggested in this thread, there has ever been a decision on this site to silence talk of the issues which trans people face, then that is just playing into the hands of the oppressors. If these discussions make people uncomfortable, good. We will never make any progress in becoming better people, or a better species overall, by staying in our comfort zone.
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  #92  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 11:46 AM
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I do appreciate how much some of the moderators have been trying to understand what can be done to make things better, especially Aethera. But it doesnít feel like it will be all that helpful when the owner of the site is posting announcements that ignore the requests that have already been made. Some of the posting since then has given me a bit of hope that things might get better. But I also donít know how much I want to invest in that without some sort of assurance that things will get better.
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  #93  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HenryLockwood View Post
--please do report anything, however minor (yes, including PMs). If there's one small infraction, we won't ban someone; but multiple small infractions create a pattern, and we can and do act on those.
Thanks for your input and your geniune questions thus far, HenryLockwood! I think they've lead to some more in-depth discussions about various topics about the community. And you have asked them very earnestly, which is an A+ from me.

I am going to touch down on a point you made here because I think it provides some valuable insight. But I didn't know you could report PMs. I think it is a rollover impression from how things were mishandled by the moderation who hurt me. So, there could be a good chance other folks within the community hold that belief as well.

I am bringing that up because I think I'll make that a focus (if we all agree on the cool LGBTQIA+ thread) that is a viable option. There is still mistrust towards moderation, so i will probably add the idea of members within the community working with another queer folk on how to report these matters as an in-between. That does make it trickier for you mods, because if someone wants to report a PM anonymously, where is the proof?

So my following thought is that maybe we do have a middle-man for those kind of events that the moderators trust. I am definitely down to volunteer for that role, BUT only if both sides of the community think I could provide a safe, helpful port for any moments of harassment/discrimination/etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syne View Post
Iíve been struggling with how best to contribute here for a bit. Iíll admit to being very disappointed with the announcement as well, and I consider AwesomeEllieís response to it to be comprehensive and accurate. It felt like an open and productive discussion got shut down, even if that wasnít the intent. Big thanks to everyone whoís contributed since then to try and find common ground to make things better.

[...]

I also think Kaigenís post is one of the most important in this thread, at least for the specific health of RPGXís queer community. Inclusion is active, consistent, and a question of culture not just rules or their enforcement, although thatís a big part of it. (Heck, this is maybe a tangent, but one of the reasons I ended up here in the first place is because I was able to make my characters women without fighting someone every time, as I often had to do for face to face games. I felt welcome to be seen as myself. That was a very important thing for me. Having RPGX be an explicitly supportive place for the queer community would do a lot to make sure everyone feels welcome.)
I have decided to add Ellie's and Kaigen's post to my recap, because I agree, I think they are strong representations to how I feel about both issues. And they are just very succinct about the problem at hand.

(And unrelated, but still important: still adore you, Syne.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by orcbane View Post
I've been working on customizing some Safety Tools with our PbP format in mind. They obviously can't solve systemic issues or cure any of the social wounds incurred by members of this community, but I wanted to bring them up as something that can help GMs advertise their games as a safe and inclusive space where hatred and bigotry won't be accepted.

Would it be an acceptable side-quest for this thread if I asked for feedback on how to formulate a proper Content Advisory with the goal being to include that anti-LGBTQIA+ sentiment won't be permitted?

 
I read your Safety Tools, and I immediately recognized several terms that are utilized within TTRPGs that are written by queer/trans folks. I think you've done a great break-down of all the various definitions, how to utilize those tools, and the importance of them in gaming, so I honestly don't have any complaints there.

As for your side-quest, I don't mind pitching in.

I actually requested the aid of my girlfriend, because I recognized there was something OFF but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. And her and I came to the realization that it was the tag 'Content Warning' itself that is the issue. Language is a very finnicky thing. Two words can completely alter the vibe of a message. And I think ultimately what is better than to say anti-discrimination is not allowed via content warning, let's flip the script, and make it a message of "LGBTQIA+ content is welcome here in the game. Bigotry is not allowed."

Making your position known in a positive light works better here! At least in my opinion.

Recap on DiscussionsHere's a link to my story, as I think it offers an idea of what occurred here, and why I am invested in change.

My first draft of suggestions for changes that could be implemented on site.
  • Syne (RPGX member) liked the suggestions.
  • bananabadger (mod) opened a dialogue about pronouns, privacy, and how to handle it in regards to individual choice. I offered my input.
  • Aethera (mod) offered her support, love, and geniune questions on what to do in terms of my suggestions, breaking down her thoughts before she requested more input from the community. That post is here. Syne responded in kind. Aethera further discussed my suggestions and laid out what the staff discussed in private here. I offered my input to her added suggestions.
  • AwesomeEllie's (member) breakdown of why the site Announcement doesn't work. Please note many within the thread and outside the site share a similiar opinion.
  • Kaigen's (member) breakdown about insidious and subtle discrimination, feelings of power disparagy, and suggestions to provide a more welcoming environment for the community.
  • My recent suggestions about providing a pinned thread for LGBTQIA+ issues, and the possibility of a private Game Forum that acts as a safe haven for members within the community who need support from other members in the LGBTQIA+ community. My opinions on both are here and here. bananabadger inquiry is here and lostcheerio's question is here.
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  #94  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 12:35 PM
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The announcement was not intended to be the final word. It was meant to say that there's been movement on important issues, in ways that can help and can be taken advantage of by this community. Staff is clearly listening, you are seeing their posts in this thread, and I have spent hours every day this week in conversation with individuals about this. Work is ongoing elsewhere.

Quote:
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The human rights of all persons are universal and indivisible. That includes LGBTQIA2s+ people. I fully support this, both in my own life and at rpgcrossing.com. Happy Pride!
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  #95  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 12:50 PM
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With utmost respect to the ongoing work that is happening out of public view, Birched, I want to challenge you to hear the reaction from the trans people in this thread and try to view it outside the lens of your own intentions. Regardless of what you meant or didn't mean with your announcement, the received impact of the paragraph Ellie pointed to was a damping of the conversation that required several of us to reiterate the importance of what we are talking about.

We need you to remember that "let's remember to be respectful" is a line that is often used against us when we try to speak up about our oppression and pain, and when we speak up about harms caused by the actions (or inaction) of the moderation team, that is not a personal attack but a critique of the system we are trying to survive in.
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  #96  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birched View Post
The announcement was not intended to be the final word. It was meant to say that there's been movement on important issues, in ways that can help and can be taken advantage of by this community. Staff is clearly listening, you are seeing their posts in this thread, and I have spent hours every day this week in conversation with individuals about this. Work is ongoing elsewhere.
I will confirm that I have been speaking with Birched, just for transperency's sake. I say this in part due to the present fear of moderation sweeping things under the rug. I think clarification from me offers some reassurance that this is true-- or I hope-- but if not, I am sorry. I like to think my character is seen as pretty honest and respectable in the community, but I am aware I make my own mistakes, too.

He's also confirmed to me (and I do apologize if you preferred that matter private, Birched) that he stepped away from the thread for some time because he understood his presence caused more problems than aid. I personally think that was the right decision for the current issues at hand.
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  #97  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aosaw View Post
With utmost respect to the ongoing work that is happening out of public view, Birched, I want to challenge you to hear the reaction from the trans people in this thread and try to view it outside the lens of your own intentions. Regardless of what you meant or didn't mean with your announcement, the received impact of the paragraph Ellie pointed to was a damping of the conversation that required several of us to reiterate the importance of what we are talking about.

We need you to remember that "let's remember to be respectful" is a line that is often used against us when we try to speak up about our oppression and pain, and when we speak up about harms caused by the actions (or inaction) of the moderation team, that is not a personal attack but a critique of the system we are trying to survive in.
I do have a question myself, because I agree with the criticism towards the Announcement, but what is the best move to make from here?

The Announcement is already up. It hurt. But we can't undo that.

Does taking it down aid us? Does editing it with stronger representation a good point forward? What would help us with that specific post?

EDIT: That last part is a legitmate question. I have my own opinion that an edit with a betterment of language could make a world of difference. But I'd like to hear the accounts of others who found it upsetting, because that would provide strong feedback on what can we do next to make things right for everybody.
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  #98  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 01:48 PM
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Y'all are more perceptive about that message than I am.

The thing that hit me was the bit about pronouns being allowed. Tonally, there's just something about 'allow'. I'm just nitpicking though.

Like Aethera's status, I'm also nursing a migraine. Ow.I can't think of much to add at the moment, but just wanna give some support to the other thoughtful folks around - and also appreciate that the reds are keeping an open mind/ear/heart through all these discussions.
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  #99  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 02:24 PM
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I'm mostly in "listen mode" in this thread (I do identify as queer but am cis), but I do want to support Strangemund's suggestion of appointing a proxy, ideally multiple proxies, who can act as anonymity buffers for people who are uncomfortable approaching the mods and admins.

We do this where I work, so that people feel more comfortable raising issues. Another thing we have at work is a completely anonymous inbox where people can report dangerous or distressing incidents, including raising issues about their superiors which might otherwise feel impossible to report because of the power disparity.
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  #100  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 02:47 PM
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This thread has been "stickied" to top of General Discussion and will remain so for the duration of Pride month (by which time we assume there will be more clarity and developments on the concept of a dedicated thread or sub-forum). Note: this was a decision through moderator consensus and admin sign-off. Just wanted to explain the time frame and backing on this.
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  #101  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangemund View Post
I am bringing that up because I think I'll make that a focus (if we all agree on the cool LGBTQIA+ thread) that is a viable option. There is still mistrust towards moderation, so i will probably add the idea of members within the community working with another queer folk on how to report these matters as an in-between. That does make it trickier for you mods, because if someone wants to report a PM anonymously, where is the proof?

So my following thought is that maybe we do have a middle-man for those kind of events that the moderators trust. I am definitely down to volunteer for that role, BUT only if both sides of the community think I could provide a safe, helpful port for any moments of harassment/discrimination/etc.
OK, that's a good point and one that I hadn't thought of. I think the same could apply to posts in a public forum, but that's much less likely (and it's also solveable if there's a trusted third party people can ask to report the offending post). The technical solution is off-topic for this thread so I'll discuss it with the rest of the staff and we'll suggest an approach if we can think of one.

We don't want to give infractions/bans based on allegations without proof: this is far too vulnerable to abuse. However, providing a safe (anonymous) way for someone to report a PM is clearly valuable.
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  #102  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangemund View Post
I read your Safety Tools, and I immediately recognized several terms that are utilized within TTRPGs that are written by queer/trans folks. I think you've done a great break-down of all the various definitions, how to utilize those tools, and the importance of them in gaming, so I honestly don't have any complaints there.

As for your side-quest, I don't mind pitching in.

I actually requested the aid of my girlfriend, because I recognized there was something OFF but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. And her and I came to the realization that it was the tag 'Content Warning' itself that is the issue. Language is a very finnicky thing. Two words can completely alter the vibe of a message. And I think ultimately what is better than to say anti-discrimination is not allowed via content warning, let's flip the script, and make it a message of "LGBTQIA+ content is welcome here in the game. Bigotry is not allowed."

Making your position known in a positive light works better here! At least in my opinion.
Yeah, I think I was trying to make the problem fit the tool, which really isn't the best way to do things.
I guess maybe it's not really something that can easily be a codified Safety Tool. It's just really a line, like the one you composed, expressing the intent; not something that fits neatly into these categories.

Thank you, Strangemund (and girlfriend!) for being awesome!
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  #103  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeEllie View Post
I love gaming, eat it up with a spoon, but if I’m going to write and play and pour in hours and days of woman hours into living within a community, online or otherwise, I owe it to myself to do so as me. And the tabletop hobby as a whole is pretty notorious for not letting people do that.
It's funny. This is undeniable, but does it not also strike you as odd that it should be so, when you consider that:
1. Although it has become more mainstream in recent years, historically the hobby was created by and played by people that were themselves misunderstood, marginalised and bullied?
2. The hobby asks people to step outside of their skins and imagine themselves as someone other than themselves? This seems like it should an open invitation not only to the LGBTQI+ community, but also to cis-het players to play LGBTQI+ characters.
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  #104  
Old Jun 9th, 2023, 10:46 PM
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In the interests of transparency and whatnot (please forgive my phrasing as it's getting late), I wanted to let everyone here know that after our most of the Admin and moderator "Reds" who could make it, at leaststaff meeting tonight, we sat down and talked through issues raised both here and privately to various members of staff. I don't have any immediate responses to give, as it's a complicated issue of how, when, where, etc. But we did talk, we did have some good ideas raised, and in a day or two to compile all of our notes and involve those who couldn't make the meeting, we should be able to offer something more.

I think we had some good discussion, truly and honestly. I don't know if it will be enough, in the right place, or satisfactory for those who have been injured. But I can honestly tell you I think we made significant strides from where we were.

I will share one agreement only, for reasons above: We care about everybody. We hope we'll be able to reflect that.

Thanks.
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  #105  
Old Jun 10th, 2023, 12:43 AM
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Heyo! Strange here!

I wanted to pop in and offer my personal thanks to what's been posted in reference to the suggestions!

Thank you bananabadger & team for stickying the thread! That's very sweet, and I doubly appreciate the extra communication efforts on the time-frame and backing. I know that extra step in explanation may seem redundant, but it helps avoid situations of confusion or miscommunication. Thank you so much for that~!

Thank you HenryLockwood & team for taking into consideration of the idea of a trusted third-party member! I realize that will be a tougher idea to sort through because even I am wondering on the logistics of it. But I am glad that is a talking point that's being discussed. I think it could provide extra support in the future for anyone who may need it.

Thank you Aethera for keeping us updated on what's happening behind the scenes! Being made aware that discussions are happening provides reassurance. I myself have been in some private talks, and bounced a few ideas back and forth. Let's keep rockin' on with the good ideas!

Quote:
Originally Posted by orcbane View Post
Yeah, I think I was trying to make the problem fit the tool, which really isn't the best way to do things.
I guess maybe it's not really something that can easily be a codified Safety Tool. It's just really a line, like the one you composed, expressing the intent; not something that fits neatly into these categories.

Thank you, Strangemund (and girlfriend!) for being awesome!
First off, awww, orcbane, thank you~! ;u; We try our best over here. And I can tell you do, too! Again, I cannot say it enough that your Safety Tool breakdown is absolutely marvelous.

I will correct myself on one suggestion, because it slipped my mind during my advice-- I think LGBTQIA2s+ is a stronger acronym to use than the one I suggested. Birched mentioned it earlier in the thread, but the 2s stands for Two-Spirit. That identity represents indigenous people who express their gender or sexual identities as different from others, and its just as important to include.

--

AND BEFORE I FORGET-- we are working on that Announcement edit but we agreed that saying 'welcome' rather than 'allow' provides a stronger message of unity and positivity. I didn't want you to feel like I forgot you, Inuyasha!

--

Whew! Okay. It's WILD how fast the week went by for me. I am going to take a breather over the weekend, soak up some me-time with my lovely girlfriend, and recharge the ole batteries, but I think what I'd like to tackle next is creating that LGBTQIA2s+ thread we discussed earlier.

What I'd love from the community is RESOURCES! Please link me any websites you think provide accurate education on gender identity, sexual identity, LGBTQIA2s+ charities, and anything that you find relevent! I am going to slowly build an easy resource list for any and all to look over.

I don't know how spamming links will alert the mods, however, so to err on the side of caution, just tell me the website names or you can just PM if you'd like to provide support in a more anonymous manner!

Cheers! Enjoy your weekend, everybody~!!
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