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  #31  
Old Jul 15th, 2021, 07:38 PM
btccg btccg is offline
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1. Does the artifact HAVE to be a weapon? Or can it be something else, like armor or a wand or a wondrous item?

2. Do we still have to meet all Prerequisites for a Salient Divine Ability (e.g. Divine Blast requires CHA 29)?

3. Are you allowing use of any templates from PF, specifically the Simple-Advanced or Simple-Giant templates?

4. In regards to Flaws, since we are starting at Level 1, the bonus Feats from Flaws would definitely be beneficial to lower level characters. This is not like your uber-game where you can add Feats to magic items (at least I hope you are NOT allowing that in this game)...any chance of you changing your mind in regards to Feats from Flaws? Even if it is on a case-by-case concept? I am asking as one of my concepts is actually Feat starved and would not get any Feats for its RHD, so the Flaws would be the only way to get Feats at Level 1.

5. Clarification question - in regards to your statement that we start with Outsider Type but gain only class HD....does this still apply to concepts using the Savage Species monster progression with Racial HD? As per SRD, the Racial HD would change to Outsider HD based on when the character became an Outsider since the Type changes the racial HD. So if a concept, for example has 2 RHD with a LA +1, it would be ECL 3. It would start at Level 1 with 1 RHD and have two more monster levels to proceed through before taking class levels (if it so chooses, based on your homebrew rule already stated). It's Type would change to Outsider and its HD would be D8 for each Racial HD that it progresses in, and it would determine Skill Points based on the Outsider Type as well. Correct?

Outsider Type
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Features
An outsider has the following features.
8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.


I am asking as I have a couple concepts for monster progressions that would end up having levels of monster RHD. If the Outsider Type is applied at Level 1, it changes how I build the character.

Last edited by btccg; Jul 15th, 2021 at 08:19 PM.
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  #32  
Old Jul 15th, 2021, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBK View Post
My original concept was a psionic build, but then I saw Mahima. Hadn't gotten too far with the idea, so it was easy to switch gears.

Then I spent some time on a cleric build, refreshed to see if there was more interest, and saw that Nezkrul chimed in. Scrapping the cleric so as not to double-up, I then spent a few hours hem-hawing and eventually deciding on and then starting to piece together a dread necromancer, only to refresh and see Nezkrul changed their mind.

Really don't want to cramp anyone's style by doubling up on roles/concepts when there are plenty of different options left. Now it's 3am and my brain hurts, so I'll start over tomorrow. lol
Word of advice - PLAY WHAT YOU WANT. Forget about party balance and what other people are playing - play the godling that YOU want to play!
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  #33  
Old Jul 15th, 2021, 10:00 PM
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Last edited by BBK; Jul 16th, 2021 at 01:58 PM.
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  #34  
Old Jul 15th, 2021, 11:34 PM
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Go ahead and grab a spot on the background thread.
I am sure many of the other players may have some of the same questions.


Quote:
1. Does the artifact HAVE to be a weapon? Or can it be something else, like armor or a wand or a wondrous item?
For the most part yes unfortunately, however I am willing to have a look at whatever your wanting to do.

Even if its a wondrous item it can still double as a weapon. So please keep that in mind.
I would lean towards no on the armor due to the whole flying thing.




Quote:
2. Do we still have to meet all Prerequisites for a Salient Divine Ability (e.g. Divine Blast requires CHA 29)?
No reqs
However there may be a nerf for that one in the future to 2d12 per level or something.

Quote:
3. Are you allowing use of any templates from PF, specifically the Simple-Advanced or Simple-Giant templates?
Sure PF is ok but goes in the home-brew thread as usual.

Quote:
4. In regards to Flaws, since we are starting at Level 1, the bonus Feats from Flaws would definitely be beneficial to lower level characters. This is not like your uber-game where you can add Feats to magic items (at least I hope you are NOT allowing that in this game)...any chance of you changing your mind in regards to Feats from Flaws? Even if it is on a case-by-case concept? I am asking as one of my concepts is actually Feat starved and would not get any Feats for its RHD, so the Flaws would be the only way to get Feats at Level 1.
Right now we only have 150gp so not really possible for feats in items however your artifact can have 1normal feat and one metamagic feat.

Something you could do is swap out feats that are class skills for other feats.

As to flaws thats still a no because your a demigod you don't have any flaws. Also the flaws don't ever get used.

Also your artifact and portfolio domains could be feats that match your build.

Quote:
5. Clarification question - in regards to your statement that we start with Outsider Type but gain only class HD...
No.
There was a typo there so you get no racial HD at all.
Also your outsider abilities should remain the same for templates or other races you want to build into. Yes Savage species is totally fine you can pick any race you want but you need to make a level by level savage progression.

However you do not need to take full levels in your racial classes, meaning you can mix and match races and move on as you wish.
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  #35  
Old Jul 15th, 2021, 11:40 PM
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To All Players
Please join us on the game forum OOC as well as grab a spot on the background thread.

Once again you all are welcome and your hard work at character creation will not be wasted.

Game Thread Is Here
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  #36  
Old Jul 15th, 2021, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBK View Post
The way I read the abilities, it seems only Divine Fire Mastery gives you spells. Earh, Air, and Water give different unique benefits instead of spells.

Also, your suggestion basically makes it a changeable (outside of combat) version of a the extra domain option that is restricted to only 'fire' spells. That removes the vast majority of the ability's uniqueness and appeal without ever allowing it to reach anything close to full (original) potential (like other abilities that have been changed to scale with character level).



I can kind of see your point, as that is a lot of damage 'all at once', but it is restricted by usages per day (plus you can just plain miss your target and that use is wasted). Which, in the long run, is less useful/deadly than well-selected domain spells. Sure, you might be able to explode the first 8 kobolds you see rushing you... but after that, you are no longer benefiting from a divine salient ability. Someone else could have Fast Healing 20 all day and survive most everything at lvl 1. Another person could be maximizing Lesser Shivering Touch every round, taking a solid 6 Dex with each passing round all day long. Someone persisting everything could be benefitting from a handful of choice spells like Fist of Stone (+6 Str), Shield (+4 AC), Swift Expeditious Retreat (+30' Speed), Bulwark of Reality (+6 AC vs Incorporeal), Guided Shot (No ranged distance penalties), and more all the live-long day. (theoretical) Infinite/continual-use is almost always better than uses-per-day abilities, because there can always be another wave of enemies. There isn't ever another wave of ability uses for the day to account for that. Plus, the ability is front-loaded. Sure, you get something that is great...at level 1. But by level 20, unless you somehow acquire more divine rank, a standard Warlock (Tier 4 Class) can do 75% of that damage chained to multiple targets literally every round. Forever. Just something to consider.

Ah I see you weren't asking to nerf these things rather you wanted to use them. . . .

I guess we could leave them alone however for the divine blast I think something like 2d12 per character level is more than adequate.
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  #37  
Old Jul 15th, 2021, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakram View Post
No.
There was a typo there so you get no racial HD at all.
Also your outsider abilities should remain the same for templates or other races you want to build into. Yes Savage species is totally fine you can pick any race you want but you need to make a level by level savage progression.

However you do not need to take full levels in your racial classes, meaning you can mix and match races and move on as you wish.[/FONT][/SIZE][/CENTER]
So, what you are saying is if I make a Savage Progression (say the 2RHD and LA +1 race for ECL as an example) I just have to make a 3 level savage progression, but I do NOT have to take any racial HD at all? So I can get the full benefits of the full savage progression over three levels and take three class levels at the same time? Basically, any savage progression acts like a gestalt (advancing in both racial and class levels at the same time) but only up the full savage progression (in this example, 3 levels)?

Level 1: monster level 1 / class level 1; class HD
Level 2: monster level 2 / class level 2; class HD
Level 3: monster level 3 / class level 3; class HD
Level 4: class level 4; class HD
etc.

Please clarify what you mean as it appears you are not using RAW for savage progressions. It basically sounds like you are ignoring Racial HD completely, and allowing characters to advance in their 'racial abilities' (i.e. monster class abilities and stat bonuses spread out over the ECL of the race) while advancing in a class as normal from Level 1. Is this correct?

Last edited by btccg; Jul 16th, 2021 at 01:53 AM.
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  #38  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 07:16 AM
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No what I am saying is if there is a race you can break it down into levels and take one level in one race and another level in another you do not get more than the one level you took.

The same for racial hd say you want to be a creature that has 20 racial hd it has no level adjustment but you just want 1 hd of the race. So you can just take the hd and choose some level approved appropriate abilities for the race. Say you then want another race with a similar situation you can take another 1 or 2 levels of it without having to take full hd of the 20 hd race.
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  #39  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakram View Post
No what I am saying is if there is a race you can break it down into levels and take one level in one race and another level in another you do not get more than the one level you took.

The same for racial hd say you want to be a creature that has 20 racial hd it has no level adjustment but you just want 1 hd of the race. So you can just take the hd and choose some level approved appropriate abilities for the race. Say you then want another race with a similar situation you can take another 1 or 2 levels of it without having to take full hd of the 20 hd race.
So we DO get racial HD if you choose to take a level in a race as per Savage Species progression rules. Any racial HD gained would be considered Outsider HD since you have us all starting as Outsider Type.

Level 1: monster level 1; racial HD as Outsider
Level 2: monster level 2; racial HD as Outsider
Level 3: monster level 3; racial HD as Outsider
Level 4: class level 1; class HD
etc.

So we are still able to progress through a full monster progression if we choose to, correct?
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  #40  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btccg View Post
So we DO get racial HD if you choose to take a level in a race as per Savage Species progression rules. Any racial HD gained would be considered Outsider HD since you have us all starting as Outsider Type.

Level 1: monster level 1; racial HD as Outsider
Level 2: monster level 2; racial HD as Outsider
Level 3: monster level 3; racial HD as Outsider
Level 4: class level 1; class HD
etc.

So we are still able to progress through a full monster progression if we choose to, correct?
If you want to sure totally up to you.
For example players are demigods but they did not get a hd from the outsider race. If players want to they can take a level of outsider instead of a class level.
What I was trying to say is you can if you want combine a monster level with a HD taking a few abilities.

Say you want to level up a giant, leonal, and a druid and take a prestige class as well

Level 1: giant gain a few + 0 LA just a few bonuses for giant; NO racial HD as Outsider
Class Level Druid 1 HD as druid
Class Level Druid 2 HD as druid
Level 1 Leonal HD as Leonal +0 LA just a few for Leonal keeping in mind you got a HD
Level 2: Leonal HD as Leonal +0 LA again gaining a few bonuses
Level Druid 3 HD as druid
Level Druid 4 HD as druid
Level Druid 5 HD as druid
Level 1 Plannar shepperd
Level 2: giant gain a few + 0 LA just a few bonuses for giant; racial HD as giant
Level 3: giant gain a few + 0 LA just a few bonuses for giant; racial HD as giant
etc
etc

Last edited by Shakram; Jul 16th, 2021 at 11:37 AM.
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  #41  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakram View Post


If you want to sure totally up to you.
For example players are demigods but they did not get a hd from the outsider race. If players want to they can take a level of outsider instead of a class level.
What I was trying to say is you can if you want combine a monster level with a HD taking a few abilities.

Say you want to level up a giant, leonal, and a druid and take a prestige class as well

Level 1: giant gain a few + 0 LA just a few bonuses for giant; NO racial HD as Outsider
Class Level Druid 1 HD as druid
Class Level Druid 2 HD as druid
Level 1 Leonal HD as Leonal +0 LA just a few for Leonal keeping in mind you got a HD
Level 2: Leonal HD as Leonal +0 LA again gaining a few bonuses
Level Druid 3 HD as druid
Level Druid 4 HD as druid
Level Druid 5 HD as druid
Level 1 Plannar shepperd
Level 2: giant gain a few + 0 LA just a few bonuses for giant; racial HD as giant
Level 3: giant gain a few + 0 LA just a few bonuses for giant; racial HD as giant
etc
etc
So the first line for first level of Giant race has noHD at all? Or do you mean that it only has the giant racial HD instead of Outsider HD since it hadn't evolved yet? This would mean that you have to build savage progressions for each of the races you want to use and you only gain the benefits of each level (i.e. you do not get the full benefit of each race at level 1 of each race).
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  #42  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btccg View Post
So the first line for first level of Giant race has noHD at all? Or do you mean that it only has the giant racial HD instead of Outsider HD since it hadn't evolved yet? This would mean that you have to build savage progressions for each of the races you want to use and you only gain the benefits of each level (i.e. you do not get the full benefit of each race at level 1 of each race).
First HD as class HD in this case druid because the benifits of the giant were so small it didnt have a level adjustment.

Look at Elans no level adjustment
Quote:
Elans
Also see the Elan monster listing.

-2 Charisma
Aberration: Elans are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
Medium: As Medium creatures, elans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elan base land speed is 30 feet.
Elans (unlike most aberrations) do not have darkvision.
Naturally Psionic: Elans gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
Resistance (Su): Elans can use psionic energy to increase their resistance to various forms of attack. As an immediate action, an elan can spend 1 power point to gain a +4 racial bonus on saving throws until the beginning of her next action.
Resilience (Su): When an elan takes damage, she can spend power points to reduce its severity. As an immediate action, she can reduce the damage she is about to take by 2 hit points for every 1 power point she spends.
Repletion (Su): An elan can sustain her body without need of food or water. If she spends 1 power point, an elan does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours.
Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Elans’ past lives expose them to wide ranges of language.
Favored Class: Psion.
Level Adjustment: +0.


Last edited by Shakram; Jul 16th, 2021 at 07:20 PM.
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  #43  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 09:32 PM
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So two quick questions, first question would a dog have an LA of +0/would it have racial hit die since its cr 1/3rd?
Second question, would a necklace of Natural Attacks [Bite] be an acceptable artifact? Thinking of writing up Oa the hound of Ao entirely based on the fact that dog and god are a palindrome.
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  #44  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MundayKnight View Post
So two quick questions, first question would a dog have an LA of +0/would it have racial hit die since its cr 1/3rd?
Second question, would a necklace of Natural Attacks [Bite] be an acceptable artifact? Thinking of writing up Oa the hound of Ao entirely based on the fact that dog and god are a palindrome.
A dog has racial HD of 1 HD. Races with racial HD of 1 or less replace their racial HD with class levels as per Savage Species rules for savage progressions. The dog race has a level adjustment of ' - ' which means it is not intended as a PC race. So, unless you manage to make yourself more intelligent (a dog has INT of 2), such as making the dog anthropomorphic or awakening it for example, you would not be a valid PC race as a dog.

Last edited by btccg; Jul 16th, 2021 at 10:53 PM.
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  #45  
Old Jul 16th, 2021, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakram View Post


First HD as class HD in this case druid because the benifits of the giant were so small it didnt have a level adjustment.

Look at Elans no level adjustment
You are missing the point, Shak. Elans have 1 racial HD, so as per Savage Species RAW they replace their racial HD with class levels and can only advance via class levels.

A giant (or any such creature with 2 racial HD or more) would have racial HD and have a savage progression. Any race with monster racial HD would have to take monster levels before they can take class levels as per Savage Species rules. However, but you are ignoring this rule and allowing PCs to take whatever racial levels they want in any race - so now players would have to build the entire savage progression in order to determine what benefits of the race they get at each level they decide to take (if they do not decide to take all racial levels in a particular monster class). This is much more complicated than simply using savage progressions RAW, in my mind.

E.g. barbarian, ogre (6 level savage progression) and troll (11 level savage progression) races for a character concept:
ECL1 = ogre racial level 1 (only level 1 starting ogre savage progression abilities); ogre RHD (or becomes Outsider HD)
ECL2 = troll racial level 1 (only level 1 starting troll savage progression abilities); troll RHD (or becomes Outsider HD)
ECL3 = Barbarian class level 1 (class HD)
ECL4 = ogre racial level 2 (only level 2 of the ogre savage progression abilities); ogre RHD (becomes Outsider HD)
ECL5 = Barbarian class level 2 (class HD)
ECL6 = troll racial level 2 (only level 2 of the troll savage progression abilities); troll RHD (becomes Outsider HD)
etc.

Based on what you have stated in the rules, this is my interpretation of what the player would have to do.

Or are you saying that I can take the ECL1 as a class level and then ECL 2+ would be racial levels (basically reverse of savage progressions RAW)? Sorry, I just don't understand the rule as you have stated it...

Last edited by btccg; Jul 17th, 2021 at 01:05 AM.
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