Outplay 2024 - Crowdsourcing Ideas

[squirmonkey]

I guess it also raises the question of: What exactly is Outplay trying to be? And how do its judging criteria produce that feeling?

For instance, the feeling that Sprite is talking about of players trying to sabotage/tear-down each other still felt like it existed last year, despite the strong prohibition in the rules against directly sabotaging or tearing down other players. Why? Because of the "Moved the Plot" judging criterion, which the judges used to direct the participants to try to engineer situations where their character was the center of attention.

It makes me wonder about what we're actually trying to promote in Outplay. Because right now it feels like the competition is wearing a lot of hats.

Is Outplay primarily a writing competition? 10 of the 40 points from last time (but also a good chunk of 20 of the remaining points in the Enjoyability and Technical/Formatting sections) rewarded good writing, and good use of writing within the context of the forum. These criteria reward writing that's in alignment with the judges' preferences, almost regardless of how that writing contributes to the game as an RPG.

Is Outplay primarily a roleplaying competition? If so, we should expect to see more points allocated to the "true to character" judging category, which was only a small portion of the score last year.

Is Outplay primarily a "being a good player in a roleplaying game" competition? If so, we should look to see more judging criteria surrounding being a team player, taking what the GM gives you and running with it, and creating a balanced environment for the team's characters to shine, most of which were completely absent in the scoring criteria last year.

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From my perspective, last year it felt more like a writing competition than anything else. Good writing and formatting were consistently rewarded above almost anything else in my opinion. Writing is a huge part of participating in play-by-post, but I think that if we look at Outplay as primarily a creative writing competition, it yields the feelings that Sprite and (to a lesser extent) WhiteStag are talking about.

I think Sprite has made a really good point. And I think it marks a good opportunity to examine what the point of Outplay is. Do people really come to RPGX to "outsmart, outroll, and outlast" each other?

[Admin Bhelogan]

Just a couple of notes - Competitions do have a tendency to bring out the worst in some people. That has caused many potential players, as well as potential organizers, to step away from Outplay and other site events completely. As an organizer, I am very cognizant of this, and am continually trying to make sure that players understand that this should be a collaborative fun event. Approaching it with the mindset that you have to sabotage other players to do well may be a very intuitive approach to the event, but it is an immature one. How do you get people to act like adults? If I had a great answer to that question, I would have a very different career than I do. I do think we have improved year over year on this, and had the MOST collaborative environment so far last year of any previous event.

Another note on judging - It is a very valid observation for some people to recognize that for them, having their creative work critiqued takes all the fun out of it. (Mrs. Bhelogan tends to fall into this category). It is totally OK if you feel this way. It just means that these types of competitions will probably not be enjoyable for you.

In addition to the valuable discussions I think we have had so far here in this thread, I have had a couple individuals also reach out and volunteer to help run this years event with me, and we are having discussions on how to run the event this year, with some major changes, to help address some of the issues. Nothing is set in stone, but what we are currently considering:

1) Rather than single-style elimination rounds, run the event more like a cross between the Mega Dungeon of 2018, and some of how Iron DM ran this year. Several shorter rounds that everyone can compete in (or take a break for a week if they like), and then have the top point earners (points earned by completing encounters, and judges' votes for each round) compete in the finale.

2) Have the overall event be shorter, possibly more rounds but compressed to complete in fewer posts with quick judge votes for favorites in each 'encounter' take place over the weekend. Wrap up by mid-summer. (Maybe the length of the event is more an issue for the organizers than judges, based on feedback here, but honestly, it has wrapped up about 4 to 6 months of the year for me between planning and running the event for the last several years)

3) Use the D&D 5E basic rules as the system this year.

4) Have some kind of a physical prize, possibly something for the winner, or something small for those who make it to the final round (still TBD).

5) Keep the Code of Conduct we had last year, and make good use of OOC collaboration threads for the players.

That is where we are currently leaning. (Or at least I am leaning, until someone tells me otherwise)


Also, thanks to those who have answered the poll so far!

[Admin Bhelogan]

Also, a question that comes to mind: The Goal of Outplay I have stated in the Code of Connduct:

Originally Posted by Bhelogan

Outplay 2023 Code of Conduct

Outplay is a friendly competition where the community gathers together to tell a story, and through rounds of elimination, pick a winner. The main goal of Outplay is to help bring the community together, have fun, and get a chance to game and interact with site members who you may not otherwise come into contact with.

Would it make sense to cut "outsmart, outroll, and outlast" subtitles we put on the logos? Does it make the event seem like it is intended to be cutthroat from the get-go, or do we keep it for legacy's sake?

[squirmonkey]

At least for me, last years Outplay brought out an extremely competitive side of me, that I generally don't nurture because I don't think it represents the best of me.

Interestingly though, I think anybody signing up for Outplay would do so largely because it's a competition. I know I did. Otherwise, you might as well just dedicate that time to a more traditional game.

But looking at what you've posted Bhel, that barely mentions competition, it mostly talks about just a big community RPG that pulls lots of people together. If it is a competition (and I don't think there's anything wrong with it being a competition) I don't think we necessarily need to shy away from language that indicates it's a competition. I just think it may help to be more intentional about what parts of it are a competition, and what parts of it are a collaborative roleplaying game like any other.

At the end of last year's outplay, it was remarked a couple times in the final judgments that it was unusual how collaborative the final round had been. But in my opinion, TTRPGs are at their best when they're that collaborative. Is there some way we can adjust the competition to make that the rule rather than the exception? I don't know. Still, rather than simply expecting players not to be cutthroat because to do so is "immature", it feels like this conversation is an opportunity to examine what people are excited to compete about and then find a way to do so that can still be friendly and collaborative.

That was a buncha ideas that didn't really gel into a meaningful point like I hoped they would, but... eh. I'm not being judged on this post

[Wishkamon]

Originally Posted by lostcheerio

Someday I hope we do game together.
Likewise

Originally Posted by Bhelogan

'The main goal of Outplay is to help bring the community together, have fun, and get a chance to game and interact with site members who you may not otherwise come into contact with.'

Hey I love that! really feels like a summary of all the things that make the competition so special when you're in the belly of it.

Sadly I think 'Outlast, Outsmart, Outplay' probably does give a contrary feeling in relation to that.

As squirmonkey said, focusing in on it as a "being a good player in a roleplaying game" competition could go some way to combat the 'player sabotage' (that I'm probably just too cheerfully ignorant to notice). penalize those who try run away with the story, and reward those who support other players and provide footholds for them to shine.

[Kaigen]

I'll echo squirmonkey and Wishkamon in saying that when I think about what makes a "good player," what I think about is collaboration and the various skills that support that, e.g. pushing the spotlight towards other characters and their stories, offering or soliciting consent for various moves and scene ideas that involve other players' characters, and engaging in OOC Stealing this metaphor from Vincent Baker"fight choreography" around IC conflict. A competitive atmosphere seems contrary to a lot of that.

As you mention above, Bhelogan, you may want to consider the impact of elimination rounds. Removing reality show-style taglines is one thing, but if, at the end of the day, whether or not a player makes it into the next round depends on whether they make themselves look better, that's going to promote a certain kind of atmosphere. It's possible to overcome that (just look at the Great British Bake Off), but it's tricky.

I'm thinking about the way people are talking about the event in this thread, and if there was a hypothetical event presented as "join a short duration, high-post-rate game with random folks to see who you click with" (pbp speed dating, if you will), I would be intrigued, whereas an elimination competition leaves me cold.

[Admin Bhelogan]

Yea, we are planning to run this year's event without elimination rounds. Rather, it will be like Iron DM, with everyone competing in several rounds initially, then having top point earners compete in the finale.

[Fillyjonk]

A Fieldset Makes Things Tidy! Suggestion: Make successful teamwork/collaboration a category in the judge's forms---AKA a way to get points. Suggestion: Pit teams or pairs against each other, so collaboration is needed to win. Bhelogan, you said: Another note on judging - It is a very valid observation for some people to recognize that for them, having their creative work critiqued takes all the fun out of it. (Mrs. Bhelogan tends to fall into this category). It is totally OK if you feel this way. It just means that these types of competitions will probably not be enjoyable for you. I am a competitive person and was attracted to Outplay, but I never played for the reasons Sprout mentioned; there is a difference between constructive criticism and having one's creative work belittled or demeaned. The tone in Outplay has historically leaned into the idea that, "If you want to compete, you need to toughen up." Good grief, it's a game! And it is a game that judges creative work which means it will always be to some degree subjective. I would say, instead, if you want to judge creative work, especially in a recreational setting, you need to feel genuine admiration and respect for the love and effort and time of the entrants. You should provide targeted suggestions for improvement (by which I mean, no one can fix everything in a day -- what's one thing or at most two things they could focus on next round that would make their entry stronger) and spend an equal amount of time on telling the player their strengths so they can lean into them.

[Kaigen]

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk

And it is a game that judges creative work which means it will always be to some degree subjective.

Indeed, this is one of the explicit reasons given for why judges for Post of the Month (which is technically a competition if you squint a bit) do not share any feedback on their decisions.

I agree with you, though, that it is entirely possible to give useful, constructive feedback on creative work, but it needs to be more focused on "This is what's good and how it could be even better" rather than "This is what's wrong with it and where it falls short."

There's an anecdote about an art teacher giving feedback on a project that makes the rounds every once in a while, where the teacher says, "I do not like this style, and this doesn't speak to me personally, but I can tell you like it and that you're doing interesting things." They go on to tell the student not to hold back to try to make it more palatable to them, who's not going to like it anyway, but to go further with the things they like.

I think that's a more productive stance for things like this. Be fans of the participants, even when they're doing things that aren't to your taste, and, as Fillyjonk says, tell them how to lean into their strengths.

[Admin Bhelogan]

Some great discussion on feedback from the judges here. I have found that putting teams against each other can have some adverse PvP effects. I remember that happening with a 'Capture The Flag' match in an old game called Kyrid Arena.

What we are planning for this year, that I hope will help with teamwork, will be a pretty major overhaul from how past events were run. The majority of the competition will consist of Encounters, with a few options available each round, where players pick which encounter they want to participate in. Every participant will get a point when the main objective of the encounter is complete. The judges will then vote for who they felt 'won' the round, or their MVP, with the main criteria being 'based on this round, which player in this group would you most want to game with at your table?'. That could be because they were the most effective, or worked well with the team, had a creative moment that inspired everyone, or whatever it was that stood out to them. Feedback will be short and positive.

We are looking at a schedule that will run like this:
Schedule:
Applications May 6th. Close them on the 27th, and let any mechanical adjustments that need to be made due by May 31st.
Round 1 starts June 2nd
Round 2 starts June 10th
Round 3 starts June 17th
Round 4 starts June 24th
Week of July 1st (with the July 4th Holiday happening on Thursday) is the lone off week
July 7th starts the final.



As much as I like rubrics, and putting judging categories together, as a Judge I have found that I tend to work them backwards. I know who I fell one (or an order if we are ranking more than 2 participants), and then I'll try to make the numbers fit in the rubric to support that. In the end, I think it makes more work for me as a judge, without necessarily providing more value to the players.

[Admin Bhelogan]

So, here is a thought I would like some feedback on. What if we didn't have any judging for the open play rounds (1-4)? Instead, we had the players in each particular encounter vote for their MVP (but not able to vote for themselves)? We used a mechanic like this in City of Endless Arenas:

MVP In your final post please vote for who you think was the MVP of the match. You may not vote for yourself though you may obstain from voting. Your vote may go to whomever you felt help the team the most, whoever went out of their way to do something amazing that turned the tide of the battle, or who just did something really cool that made the match interesting for you. If you wish may include a short summary as to why you are voting this character as the MVP. Please put this vote in a fieldset labeled MVP. You may directly copy and paste the following code to make it easier: [FIELDSET="MVP Vote"]Name: <character name> Reason: <what prompted your vote>[/FIELDSET]

If there was a tie, the DM would cast the tie-breaking vote. Would that help alleviate some issues with being judged? Or, would removing feedback detract from the event? (Would also remove the chance for people to earn some badges, since we would need less help on the back end). I know there is a lot to unpack with potential scenarios if we went that route, and I am not going to try and spell all of them out, but feel free to bring up any that you think would be positive or negative.

[squirmonkey]

I know it didn’t work for everyone, but having the judges there was part of the appeal of the event for me

[Dworin]

First off: I didn't participate in outplay 2023 and am not currently planning to join outplay 2024.

Having said that, I think such a voting system opens the door to 'strategic voting', 'friends voting for friends' and has quite the potential to go sour. Even if it all stays friendly <what prompted your vote> seems likely to lead to just platitudes.

In ironDM, I really appreciated the constructive feedback and I think that works best when it comes from impartial judges.

[Kaigen]

Hmm, so on the one hand, players voting for each other encourages everyone to "play nice" and collaborate, since trying to undermine your fellow "competitors" won't do you any favors when it comes time for them to vote. On the other hand, as Dworin and squirmonkey point out, it means less constructive feedback from impartial observers (feedback that could be useful in refining your approach to later rounds), and there's a potential for unfair advantage (or the perception of such) if two players who already know each other and play together get sorted into the same group.

I haven't participated in OutPlay before, and the only context I have for the feedback the judges provide is from this thread, but I do know that PbP in general is a low-feedback environment. People tend not to talk about each others' posts from a meta perspective, and when they do, it tends to come in the sort of platitudes Dworin mentions, not because it's insincere, but because defining what it is you like about something can be hard (and the rpxp box doesn't leave a lot of room for elaboration). I do think the chance to get some specific constructive feedback is part of the ...and why I wish PotM judges would share more of their reasoning for their picks, but that's a whole 'nother conversation.appeal.

[psuedenim]

Break in a work emergency so for stress relief I offer you a little brain dump.

Do it all anonymously.
Start now, run x number of teams, they post in a private thread(s).
Posts are copied and anonymised as best as possible to a public area and get voted/judged there.

Other thoughts
Predefined path. Here are 5 key points write no more than 500 words - feels like IronPlayer, and much more solo like. Could be made team like if players in a team have to post in turn and hit the objective. Allows for a team to win and individuals get that personal criticism some want.

Rubrics
Yes they can be gamed but are still useful for framing judgements, point allocations and discussions of.

Player on Player voting
A player offers up their weakest and strongest area of their post and you vote on that

e.g.
Weak - lack of thorough analysis on any of the items listed, left you to do the work
Strong - variety of ideas