[Mechanics] OOC PLAYTESTING Discussions

[Fil kearney]

We're gonna talk about about the point systems here. What is working, what isn't, things that need to be changed, problem areas, and what is working well.

I"ll probably move these threas over to here eventually, but in the meantime, here are the House rule links:
ToB fighter variant
http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthrea...93#post2977293
Spell point system:
http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthrea...31#post2976431

[Fil kearney]

Reserved for ToB rules summary

[Fil kearney]

Reserved for spellpoint summary

[Fil kearney]

Okay frst question brought up by Kael:
Summon Monster/Animal I-IX: Hybrid or Sustained spell?

While they are obviously sustained each round, the initial casting is up for debate. As for now, I am going to say Hybrid. This will prevent an army of summoned critters from swarming a btlefield.. you could upkeep a lot of them, sure. but the initial exg cost to get them on the able will prevent too many high level summons at once. This just feels balanced, and we could consider sustained later if so desired.
The impact this is goin to have on play"
Your highest level summo spell will prevent you from u being ultra buffed. precombat. Once the critter is on the field, the sus investment is more managable. but pretty much requires yo to have the friend there from the first thing in the morning til it's killed... then you have to drop all your u ustained to resummon .
THis could be problematic.

Simly casting as a sustained spell will allow for more felxibility in overall casting, and won't preent a buffer/herder from doing his best deploy... the cost to sustain a highest level critter in and of it'self is debilitating ... 5th level caster must invest 5 pints just to be sure he has his summons... losing all exg and hyb spells while around... throw on some buffs, and the full caster is seriously limited.


So after talking it out, Summon spells are Sustained for now, not Hybrids. If this becomes apparenly broken, then we'll have to reconsider... so be welcom to try to break this at some point either in or out of combat..

[Fil kearney]

Kael asks another good question:

0 level spell resistance grants a net +1 save bonus. for free... why wouldn't everyone just have a +1 to saves?

This is a challenge. 4 obvious options:
1. make resistance 1st level. this causes a standard 1 point to sustain.
2. Put a duration on 0 level spells. This breaks suit of the etire system.
3. concoct a point system for 0 levels.. but I can't think of one tat will work elegantly.
4. eliminate resistance from the game.

I will say option 1 makes the most sense. I don't think there are too many 0 level spells that will requre this kind of attention, but the easiest answer for ANY 0 level spell that is "too good" for free, limitless use will be bumped to 1st level.
If you don't wat to pay the price, you have chose option 4 for yourself.

Next logical question is going to be read or detect magic. a single casting technically makes it active forever. But detect spells require a minimum of a standard action to focus on the targget are or object.... with free casting, there's no difference here. IF you have the 0 level detecdt spell, you can effectively detect whatever as a standard action and then of course the extra rounds needed to be spent to focus for additional info.
And quite frankly, this just makes sense to me. wizards read magic. druids should be able to detect pison.

What about daze? standard action triggers a save or become dazed... honestly if a wizard wants to spend their round trying this for free instead of spending pits to do something more likelh to succeed, go ahead. will save negates, and it's zero level... so minimal REAL impact. You give up your action to prevent another to maybe not act either this round.

Touch of fatigue is a SoD. it would be appropriate to make it a 1st level sustain spell.

SPlash of acid, disrupt undead.. these spells cause so little damage that the time taken to cast it is sufficient penalty for the miniscule damage dealth.


These judgements shold be able to cover virtually any other 0 level spell out there, but if something doesn't fit these parameters, I'll be happy to discuss it here as well.

Keep em coming! Help me find any flaws in what we have built thusfar!

[Fil kearney]

Another good pm from Kael:

ok, let me run a strategy by you, i know this is legal but i want to know if it is broken.
level 8 wizard
I cast Girallon’s Blessing (Savage Species 66) to grow 4 extra pairs of arms out side of a battle, 5 points to sustain, 19 points remain.
Then i cast Spell Flower (Savage Species pg 70) so that i can hold touch spell charges in my hands. 1 charge to sustain 18 points remain
I then proceed to cast 1-5 spells of Corrosive Grasp (Spell Compendium 53) with the metamagic feat Reach Spell, and i am able to do this in very little time outside of battle. Each costing 15 points then a recharge in between.
So now i have 5 spells of Corrosive Grasp ready for when battle begins.
First round of battle i can cast one spell of Corrosive grasp at an enemy, and as a free action release the other 5 blasts albeit at a penalty equivalent to making an offhand attack with each arm.
At level 8 Corrosive grasp allows for 8 grasps at 1d8 damage, so that would be 8 ranged touch attacks for 1d8 damage cast 6 times or 8d8+8d8+8d8+8d8+8d8+8d8 damage at the 8th level. Corrosive Grasp has no damage cap so at level twenty i would be able to make 20d8.

This would be impossible to pull off under traditional rules because it would require 7 3rd level spell slots. But it is possible in this version. I was wondering if this would be a break in the system? I am sure there might be other spells able to be manipulated this way. I will keep looking for more

Good thinking! This is good spell optimization and tactcs... but both spells have been revised in Spell Compendium (I use Google to search each title of spell... generally the first 3 postings will tell me what source it's in)
GIrallon's Blessing has been revised in Spell Compendium page 106.. Still 3rd level, but it is now only 1 pair of arms Yes, it is sustain.
Spell Flower is revised in SpellCompendium as well P. 198... 1st level sustain, but it will only grant a spell to a hand not needed to cast the spell... normally, this spell is worthless unless you have still spell metamagic enhancemnt... but here with girallon's blessing, you can have the spell 3 or 4 times on your person
Watch out! if you cast another spell with somantic components before discharging those spells, you'll lose one. so if you go with a full 4 flowered touch attacks, you are removing your flexibility... but let's assume that is what you have done.
Reach spell changes touch spell to ray spell, which cannot be left "charged" for later use.. so spell flower wil not help there, FYI.
Corrosive grasp is a hybrid spell... as a touch spell it is exg, but it lasts an extra touch for every leve you have... so a 20th level caster would have 20 touches with this spell. This is more than say, rustin grasp which is a single touch and it's over. it will be expensive to cast, but since it has a "duration" of sorts, I think we should be able to sustain it. That seems a fair compromise, and sets a fair precedence in the future.
It is also important to note that the spell only adds d6 damage per attack. it's not 20d6 at 20.. so we are starting to see a big difference in how this wil result.


Here's how this would shake down:
start no buffs with 24 points.
sustain giralon's blessing 5 points
19 left
(assuming still spell is present) cast spell flower for 2, sustain for 1 point
now you can have touch attack on all four hands.
17 left, 1 to recover
Cast four corrosive touches (they have to be still tspells to prevent losing one of the flowers): 6 each to cast, 1 each to sustain
This will require a recovery to fulfill.
You now have 4 limbs, capable of doing d4+str damage, with corrosive touch adding d6 acid damage. This has taken 10 of 24 points to set up over the course of 7 rounds.(one round to recover + 6 spells cast)
To keep all four claws active with corrosive graps, you will have to not use somantic components, requiring still spell to be used often, which could be more trouble than it's worth.
at 8th level you have BAB +4... and the two extra claws are considered secondary attacks, but all claws are light weapons... according to SRD, primary attack is -4 ad all secondary attacks are -8.
IF you take multiattack ass a feat, it will only be a cumulative -2 for all attacks.
This is dismal. The likelihood of ever hitting with these attacks are nearly none.
Yes you can do it, but 4 melee attacks at level 8 that are unlikely to hit is a risky tactic at best. At higher levels, if you stack wraitgh touch after setting all this up, it becomes more possible as a touch attack instead of regular attack.
(Girallo's arms specifically state that if you don't make full claw attacks, then you can't use them at all)
Alternatively, you could ust have three attacks with corrosive touch, and have your regular attack for- d4 + d6acid +str, and the two girallon arms only take a -5 penalty to hit.. this still sucks, but not as bad as attemptig to two-weapon attack for the previous mentioned -4 and -8 x3. The feat would make this considerably easier though. but that is a feat for a so so tactic.


So, in short, this spell combo is not in the least bit broken, and is a bit more expensive than it is worth.

This HAS raised the question, though... a touch attack spell is "charged". it stays on the hand until an attack is made with it, or another spell is cast, thus neutralizing the charged spell.
As such, MOST touch attack spells like wilting touch or rusting grasp are Exg. spells that discharge after attackng.
for the sake of recovering, those points would NOT be available for recovery until AFTER the spell is discharged. .. you could keep rusting graps primed all day to use, and as such, the points are locked in place until the spell is relased for recoery.
It would be virtually imossible to do this girallon arm trick with high level touch spells because the cost to hold an exg spell is incredibly expensive. that itself will prevent girallon abuse in game.


Regarding wraith's touch, or true strike, because those spells last until the end of next ound. they cannot be extended in time any way, so I don't bind the use of points... they are effectiely instant.
We COULD play that true strike and wrait's strike type spells leave the points locked until the end of the next turn. quite frankly, if next round, you recover your points instead of using the spell, you have wasted the time to use the spell ANYWAY... and you would be able to abandon the spell recover the points as usual. this is a technicality that I dont currently see as an issue.. but if it comes up, we can look at it closer.



Thanks for asking great questions. I do believe this is making the "cut and dry" system a bit more complex, but the rules are remaining the same, and the cost of exg vs hyb vs sus are holding thusfar. it's just a matter of looking closely at anygive spell and seein what rules it properly fits under.
corrosive grasp, for instance, could be a sustain spell because it is low damage and lasts a number of rounds... but at first level when the spell is available to cast, d6 as a touch attach is not bad. Normally a touch spell like this would end it immediately, and it would be an exg spell.. but the spell itself tells us that it will have a "duration" in the future... this would sensibly become a hyb spell, instead of keeping it as a "charged" exg spell. IF the damage scaled by level.. then I would treat it as a charged exg spell that could be maintained perpetually for an exg price to sustain. IF we find a spell that works this way, we know how to handle it.

Since there is no uniform "code" on how spells are treated we will run into a lot of rogues spells... and it may be a DM's caveat to say if it is exg, hyb or sus.
This is easily handled witn the spell is first considered. simply keeping a running list will eventually flesh them all out. Not too difficult, really--most will be very intuitive.

Feedback appreciated.

[Kael Vonrik]

Ok, i asked about Reach Spell and Spell Flower and you said that they could work in conjunction, otherwise i would not have come up with this strategy


also has there been a revision to corrosive grasp? i hve not been able to find it, this is a exert from Spell Compendium
CORROSIVE GRASP
Conjuration (Creation) [Acid]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: Creatures touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Your hand glistens and smokes from a
viscous coating of acid. It does not harm you,
but your opponents are less fortunate.
A touch attack with this hand causes
1d8 points of acid damage. You can
use this melee touch attack up to
one time per level. You can also deal
this damage as extra damage with
an unarmed strike or an attack with
a natural weapon. If you grapple an
opponent, you can deal this damage in
addition to other damage you deal with
a successful grapple check.

[Fil kearney]

oops. d8. my pdf is crappy... my bad.

Regarding reach and flower working together: that is an error. reach spell changes touch spells to rays, and flower works only with touch spells.
Even if reach and flower did work together, the above combo won't, because girallon blessing can only be used in melee combat as claw attacks... reach spell and girallon arms do not work together either.

I want to play this as close to accurately as possible. This is playtesting first, game second. I can and may very well switch things around at will, depending on what I want to see.

I apologize for switching on you kael. it wasn't personal.
I appreciate everyone remaining unattached to their characgers. they are going to have a very short lifespan anyway.

[Kael Vonrik]

no no i am fine with the change, i was just attempting to come up with a strategy that would push the bounds of the game like you would want for a test play. I am not personally attached at all jsut looking for strategy to play with within the system.

[Fil kearney]

tweaked the ToB numbers:
http://www.rpgcrossing.com/showthrea...56#post2999056

Swordsages got a larger pool per leel, crusaders lost points inspired each round and total pool size.

Number analysis provided, and balanced maintained?
we;ll see soon hoepfully.

[Fil kearney]

FIre shurikan is another one of those wierd spells with "undefined" durations... that makes it a hybrid spell. It's an attack spell, so it has initial cost of exigents, but you can have additional uses in later rounds... an no time frame to use them. So this would be "maintaining" the spell until you decide to use any remaining shurikan (at this level though you only get one.. but iuntil yo use it, you have to upkeep it)

So if you fire it off next round (ha punny!!) then yo are free to recove the full cost.

And on that note, I beleive the two arcane casters have prettty much exhausted their pools for the first time in combat... meaning they are likely due to recover points. How is this going for you all so far?

[Kael Vonrik]

going alright but i still have a magic missle in me and perhaps something else

[Kael Vonrik]

Can i command summoned creatures to "aid another?

"If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions."

"In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a spell, or to assist another character’s skill check."

[Fil kearney]

yes.

[Fil kearney]

Originally Posted by Kael Vonrik

going alright but i still have a magic missle in me and perhaps something else

true true.