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  #421  
Old Apr 4th, 2007, 11:24 AM
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Hey folks... I found this in a sig at Co Op board wotc...
http://middendorfproject.googlepages...nkAndK_v02.pdf

it's a pdf. go to races>powerful races

it's a revision of playing monstrous creatures to replace the saveage species method.
I like it a lot. It seems much more sensible.

This is only going to impact
random syllable nazarthene will now be ecl 12 ... it will shave 4 levels off the progression to 12 levels (using the detailed method of creation, bumping it to 12d10 instead of 11d8)
SW baleen whale remains ecl 3... it will change his hd to 3d12 instead of 3d8.

both characters will lose stat bonuses, but yer gonna get em back when celestine starts going genie, so no big tears necesary.

speaking of which....
I also propose that this set the bar for what characters can wildshape/polymorph into. if we are 13th level, then I think it would be perfectly reasonable to assume the shape and abilities of an effectively 13th level something. considering we're already playing gestalt, assuming some other equivalent leveled critter abilities for the time being isn't very unbalancing at all.

this wouldn't impact templates... those are for the most part pretty balanced using this alternative system already, and can still be bought off.

for example, a 1/2 celestial efreet would be (cr8+1 +2 for [awesome](due to wishes exploit)) level11... a 1/2celestial would be (+4 for character template) level 15 character.. that's pretty much when we planned on making use of it anyway. Perfect.

Meanwhile, PAO into a gold dragon would allow the various age categories at levels 8, 10, 12, 14, 17, 19, 24, 25, 27, 29, 31 respectively. so we could pull an adult gold dragon at level 19 pre epic. Considering it's abilities, pretty in balance again.
obviously, if someone wanted to play an adult gold dragon at level 19, I'd be fine with that, but we'd scale back the hd, saves, bab, skills, and all related effects to match the level-- and again, I think that would be reasonable to have the buffs, attacks and 7th level spell access at level 19. shoot, even the 12d10 breath weapons don't outshine a well built dragon adept or celestine's warlock blasts.
so fair again.

for the record, beholders are level 16. cr13 +1 +2[awesome]


so voice yer approval or viable arguement why this wouldn't work.
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  #422  
Old Apr 4th, 2007, 12:10 PM
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So Celstine would rely on LA instead of +CR for templates? (usually +4 LA vs +2 or +3 CR)
This different method (which relies on CR and sort of LA) changes things a bit for Celestine. Mostly its a big debuff, as all the forms he would take are delayed by 4-5 levels. I can maybe get another item to compensate, but I don't know if it would stack with Jade.

So, to sum up: This method is a big debuff for Celestine. If thats what you want, thats OK, just so you know that Celestine will be *much* less powerful unless he can get an item to offset the new cost. If so, I'd need some help pricing such an item (and to know whether or not it would even stack with Jade's -4 ability). I know there was such an item in some source, but it also had a big hit to CHA skills attached to it, so I'm not sure how to price an item without the hit.
---
New Werebear: CR 5 + 1 = 6 + 4 for axiomatic = 10
Old Werebear: Was confusing due to it not really having HD
^-- Was very confusing originally, and doesn't matter since he can take it by lvl 10, which is when he was using it anyways.

New Efreeti: CR8 + 1 + 2 (awesome) = 11 +4 for half-celestial = 15
Old Efreeti: 10 HD = 10 +0 HD for half-celestial template = 10 (but can't take it until lvl 14)
^-- So overall I can take Efreeti 1 level later; not so bad.

New Astral Deva: CR 14 + 1 + 2 (awesome) = 17
Old Astral Deva: 12 HD = 12 (but can't take until lvl 14 anyways)
^--- I lose 5 levels here, but he couldn't take it until 14th lvl anyways, so its more like a 3 level loss.

New Planetar: CR 16 + 1 +2 (awesome) = 19
Old Planetar: 14 HD
^-- I was originally going to use Planetar as my default form when I got wildshape (outsider) at 14th lvl, but this bumps it back to lvl 19. 5 level loss

New Titan: CR 21 + 1 +2 (awesome) = 24
Old Titan: 20 HD = 20
^-- 4 level loss here. Jade has an ability on it, -4 to wildshape levels, meaning I could've taken Titan at 16 (now 20 is the earliest), though I would probalby have stuck with Planetar.

Finally:
New Solar: CR 23 + 1 + 2 (awesome) = 26
Old Solar: 22 HD = 22
^-- Again, 4 level loss. Jade, which originally allowed Solar pre-epic, now won't. Celestine would have to get some other item to allow it.
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  #423  
Old Apr 4th, 2007, 03:23 PM
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Keep in mind that using the system as a guideline for polymorphing and Wild Shape neglects some things. Often, these effects don't give all or even most of a creature's abilities. For instance, polymorphing into an outsider is quite nice for the stats, but cuts out a lot of the monster's magical stuff. Angels, devils, and demons all have some rather wild SLAs and supernatural abilities, none of which are granted with most forms of polymorph or Wild Shape. (Shapechange and the Planar Sheperd's variant are exceptions.) Thus, using the CR of a critter for these abilities makes for some flawed comparisons.

Plus, it puts Pit Fiends out of reach for Draconic Polymorph...
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  #424  
Old Apr 4th, 2007, 06:14 PM
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For the sake of simplicity, I would say don't bother with it except maybe for RandomSyllable who's going to be pretty underpowered anyways and could use the boost. I think for the rest of us it would just require too much retrofitting, and the wacky gestalt rules do away with the main problem of LA which is loss of HD anyways.

Incidentally, my crazy workload is nearly done. I might post tonight... if I don't, assume that I've passed out and am catching up on some much needed sleep.

Oh, and I noticed this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Wayfarer
it's the two bulettes again, Freki and Geki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fil kearney
The lighter, female one, "Razr" nuzzles Aurok, seeming to express, "I don't understand". while "Maul"-- the darker, male one paces about
So which is it? Freki & Geki, or Razr & Maul?
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Last edited by Surreal; Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:18 PM.
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  #425  
Old Apr 4th, 2007, 06:20 PM
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Hrm, I think the rules are a neat idea (I mean, 4 more levels to play with? Sign me up!), but the ability score adjustments only work for non [awesome] critters, really.

The thing about using an elite array is that it flattens out ability scores by lowering the large bonuses and penalties alike. When you don't have penalties on any ability score and bonuses on a few, it creates some interesting modifiers.

Normal modifiers for naztharune:

+4 Str, +10Dex, +8 Con, +4 Int, +4 Cha

With this system:

+4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha.

I gained a wisdom bonus! But it looks strange when you think that the Str mod doesn't change, That's the flattening action, I guess.

Last edited by randomsyllable; Apr 4th, 2007 at 06:28 PM.
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  #426  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 02:45 AM
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If you've seen Pulp Fiction, you should be able to get some vague idea of the role in which Vintereth is trying to act. She's Mia, and Tanner is Vincent. Sort of. :biggrin:
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  #427  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 02:51 AM
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How averse would the group be to a whip-wielding CHA 20+ crusader paladin who goes around in tight-fitting black leather and whips her comrades back to health?
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  #428  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 02:59 AM
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That sounds bizarre, but it's possible to do the same paradoxical thing by polymorphing into a karrn (Legacy of the Dragons). Because having a poisonous bite that heals people is just amusing.

Really, if a build makes me think, "Hwaaa....?" in its quirkiness, it's probably suitably entertaining.
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  #429  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoldorForce
If you've seen Pulp Fiction, you should be able to get some vague idea of the role in which Vintereth is trying to act. She's Mia, and Tanner is Vincent. Sort of. :biggrin:
Hahha. I can see that. Vincent is pretty awesome in the movie.

Who would Celestine be then ... ?
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  #430  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomsyllable
I gained a wisdom bonus! But it looks strange when you think that the Str mod doesn't change, .
here's what I see:
20,18,14,14,14,10
15,14,13,12,10,8
4,4,0,2,4,2
assign bonuses as most appropriate:
s+2 d+4 c+4 i+2 w-0 a+4
you could switch str and cha... it's a judgement call... but I'm easy like a sunday morning.

aurok would look like this:
(not counting templates)
18,14,14,14,10,10
15,14,13,12,10,08
2,0,0,2,0,2
s+2 c+2 D+2 I,W,A +0
he could switch dex and wis if he wanted.
3d8 changes to 3d12

for his 3 levels he gets:
3d12 hp
+3bab
s+2 c+2 d+2
+9 nat ac
size large
swim speed 40'
take ten on swim checks +8 bonus
+4 spot and listen
----------------------------
that's about a 3rd level barbarian there. well balanced.
Sure, his base stats get nerfed a bit--he loses 6 str 2 dex 2 con and 4 wis, but considering the co board agrees the baldeen whale is the MOST broken character ever to begin with... this a great improvement. for actual characters in game, I think this system flies, and you both should adjust accordingly. again,m the genie at level 15 will fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zarzak
So, to sum up: This method is a big debuff for Celestine. If thats what you want, thats OK, just so you know that Celestine will be *much* less powerful .
you've got full druidic casting, an animal companion, a yet-unused cohort, a legacy weapon, hellfire blasts without stat penalty, and the ability to use the SLA and SU abilities for (good) outsiders that you wildshape into... and you consider "only" being able to wildshape into a fully functioning (I believe you get EVERYTHING, right?) planetar at level 19 (providing dr, regenration, a fist full of sla, sr 30, and 17th level clerical casting ON TOP of your 19th level druidic casting) as "a big debuff for celestine"?

I consider you my friends, so I'm okay if I offend all of you a bit...
Zarzak... you are setting the curve on what is considered "powerful" on this team. The only golden rule I gave you was "balance yourselves".
so you have to wait until level 26 to play a fully functioning astral deva... don't you think the rest of the party would appreciate that?


who here plans on playing party healer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Wayfarer
How averse would the group be to a whip-wielding CHA 20+ crusader paladin who goes around in tight-fitting black leather and whips her comrades back to health?
I think it's awesome! fits the flavor of the group well enough too.
gestalt would best have a good dose of favored soul focused on heals and a bit of marshall to motivate for flavor. a good slap in the face with a gloved hand makes for a nice touch heal effect.


Is this a cohort yer considering? I approve!
If i recall correctly, most heal spells just don't work in the mournland.. so that will help offset the added danger... and I have no indication that zarzak or david are interested in playing dedicated group medic... so someone needs to step up to the plate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NoldorForce
Keep in mind that using the system as a guideline for polymorphing and Wild Shape neglects some things. Often, these effects don't give all or even most of a creature's abilities. For instance, polymorphing into an outsider is quite nice for the stats, but cuts out a lot of the monster's magical stuff. Angels, devils, and demons all have some rather wild SLAs and supernatural abilities, none of which are granted with most forms of polymorph or Wild Shape. (Shapechange and the Planar Sheperd's variant are exceptions.) Thus, using the CR of a critter for these abilities makes for some flawed comparisons.

Plus, it puts Pit Fiends out of reach for Draconic Polymorph...
ah. That is a good point I completely neglected.
I can't reference draconic polymorph... I assume it simply takes the cap off of hd limits?
Meh. considering the crowd, yer right. no need to apply the change to polymorphs or standard wildshaping.

but considering how few SU abilities tanner and the lot will have, I think this new concept still works well with shapechange... and of course, the uber flexible megawildshape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal
For the sake of simplicity, I would say don't bother with it except maybe for RandomSyllable who's going to be pretty underpowered anyways and could use the boost. I think for the rest of us it would just require too much retrofitting, and the wacky gestalt rules do away with the main problem of LA which is loss of HD anyways.
no one's character is going to change except for random and SW as above. templates are unchanged..
regarding templates... many have a cr variable depending on base creature hd.. I have chosen to ignore this because obviously we are all reaching for 20 levels.. this is often the same for adj. cr or la... this also nerfs celestines and tanners future shapeshifts, which I have already argued as fair to everyone else's character.
the ghost is actually the only exception to the rule.. being 3 levels with this adj cr system, and la 5 from conventional wisdom.. and your build method.
obviously, your ghost could have been built with only one extra power instead of three... hey you had to pay the levels anyway, right? I figure that is balanced well enough to have those options cost the two extra levels you already spent. you can buy down one leel later if you so choose... but again, this is the only nonsensical exception I've ran across... of course its involving your character, surreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal
So which is it? Freki & Geki, or Razr & Maul?
Yeah... my bad. Looks like sw went with my error, so I edited his for consistency. thanks, sw.

Hey.. I did notice that when aurok leap attacks he deals roughly 600 points of damage. That's basicaly a save or die requiring a move and standard action to activate... which is fine considering sul's forte and the casters on the team.

do me a faovr...
DON'T get pounce or multiple charge actions until level 40ish.
and David... hold off on timestop until around then too, okay?

I've at this point resolved all my fears and anxieties that this game will explode into utter broken chaos. I may have additional fears in the future as you shock me with your abilities.. but this doesn't necesarily mean I'll say, "don't do this" or "i'm denying that"
My nerfing and no list has been very short. The changes and limits i impose are attempting to minimize the power gap in a virtualy unlimited power game.

so again, If I have offended any of you-- and by that I mostly mean zarzak-- realize I'm looking out for everyone's best interest as the referee of this game (how about that for an old school term for DM?)

I love this game. We've only just barely started, and I am going to do my best to terrify you, make you cry, and celebrate when you utterly ruin my plans and turn my plots to crap.
if there are still clarifications and arguements needed, by all means lets do it.
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Last edited by Fil kearney; Apr 5th, 2007 at 02:13 PM.
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  #431  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 03:08 PM
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At least Aurok isn't using Mark of Minauros. (For reference, that gives +2 to hit for every 10' you move on a charge.)

I've generally agreed that almost any power level for a game is acceptable as long as everyone is on equal footing and the DM can still challenge the party. (Pun-Pun power is out, considering the existence of infinite ability scores and immunity to everything.) Presumably you (Fil) are referring to the solar, rather than to the astral deva (which is less powerful than the planetar)?

Healer...hmm...either the cohort or Tanner (with a rod or few of Reach Spell) could do that sort of stuff. It seems that our unwritten contract basically has healing occuring after battle...which makes grabbing wands of Lesser Vigor seem good. And at high enough levels (ie not anytime soon), Vintereth could Persistify Mass Lesser Vigor for some all-day fast healing.

Draconic Polymorph increases the HD cap from 15 to 20, in addition to making the spell of Personal range and giving some additional ability score boosts. And pit fiends (my favorite all-around shapechanging target) have 18 HD.
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  #432  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 03:23 PM
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Okedoke, I will redo the polymorph section of the wiki soonish.

Celestine's cohort will have divine casting, and thus healing, available.
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  #433  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 03:40 PM
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S'cool. I'd keep the +4 on the Cha.

Does this mean any template I want to shove into the 4 levels thus freed up are costed out according to their CR, not their LA?
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  #434  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fil kearney
the ghost is actually the only exception to the rule.. being 3 levels with this adj cr system, and la 5 from conventional wisdom.. and your build method.
obviously, your ghost could have been built with only one extra power instead of three... hey you had to pay the levels anyway, right? I figure that is balanced well enough to have those options cost the two extra levels you already spent. you can buy down one leel later if you so choose... but again, this is the only nonsensical exception I've ran across... of course its involving your character, surreal.
I wasn't really complaining about the new system. I just have a ridiculous amount of LA that's all... counting bloodlines and stuff I think that's nearly a 9 LA on one side. My cohort has about the same. Meh, whatever works. I'm easy too.
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  #435  
Old Apr 5th, 2007, 08:35 PM
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real brief.. no time.. use la for templates as written in the book. if a 1/2 angel is cr 3 at 15 hd then it would now be 4 levels with this new system. which is the same as the written la. tha work out most of the time... so leave the LA as is.. you can still buy off the la from templates with xp.

now other templates other places may not be similarly balanced, but I am going to assume they are for this game.

thanks for everyone's flexibility. I know I pooped in your cereal, Zarzak and surreal.

oh hey.. this came up somewhere... If folks use disposable items like wands and potions etc... with this system of loot we use, you are permanently expending resources... which sucks.

so as long as you are not a full caster, you can replenish your expended items each level.
this is a judgement call on who is considered a full caster.

aurok, sul, night(random) are obviously not full casters.
celestine and tanner obviously are
taht damn chameleon is a grey area.. as is the bard and other limit level casters.

so I'm looking for advice on this one.
I' thinking if you can only cast 1-3 level spells regardless of class at level 20, yer not a full caster.
if you get to 7-9th level spells regardless of class at level 20 yer a full caster.
if you get to 4-6th level spells by level 20,yer a half- caster. this would inlude artificers.

should half casters get half their expended resources refreshed at level gain, or is there a less number crunching- way to do this?

obviously, ammo shooters, scroll burners, wand users and potion chuggers are the only ones really affected by this, and it penalzies the excessive use of nightsticks (a good balancing feature) or other abusable cheeze that may come up.. so the non casters in the party may eventually bridge the power gap through non penalized magic item usage.

feedback welcome, please
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